E98: The Financial Domain of Friendships

Kirtly: A good friend would take us in if we needed a place to stay for a while, I hope. A good friend would share food, but would a good friend lend us money?

Welcome back to the 7 Domains of Friendship. We're talking about the financial domain. I'm Dr. Kirtly Jones, a reproductive endocrinologist at the University of Utah. And with me is my friend and co-host, Dr. Katie Ward, a professor in the nursing school at the University of Utah and an anthropologist, and I have no idea where she is about money.

So good friends can talk about almost anything, our periods, our fears, our romances. But can we talk about money? Personally, I'm a little uneasy about talking with friends about money. They might have more than I do, they might have less, they might have the same, but I'm not really comfortable talking about it. Katie, how about you?

Katie: I'm not comfortable talking about it either. I mean, I think it goes back to my childhood. My parents were very private about money. I remember asking my father how much money he made and being told, "Never ask that." It was almost like a spanking offense.

Kirtly: Oh, no.

Katie: So it was really forbidden. Yeah, so there's that baggage about it. But I think one of the reasons we're uncomfortable talking about money is it has a lot to do with your standing, your credit history, your respectability. And it's more than just the numbers. It's about what's possible to do in your life.

And it changes over a lifetime, right? When I was 20 and scrappy, all my friends were scrappy too. We were all broke together, and so everybody was in the same place, and we were splitting cheap pizza, and that was just where everybody was. But by 60, things have diverged a lot, and what's possible gets to be really different.

Kirtly: Well, actually, when you're young, when you may all be in similar neighborhood social situations together, or as a kid, you just don't know. I remember my mom would borrow my babysitting money so that she could buy groceries at the end of the month. But I never asked if we were short. And I never knew what my dad made.

And my friends, we lived in the same neighborhood, but as you get older, your paths diverge from your childhood friends. By the time you're 40 or 50, your friends often are in similar educational and economic situation. But not always. I have very good friends who were staff, who were nurses, who just weren't the same as me, and we don't usually talk about money.

There's a financial services company called Bread Financial, and they did a survey in 2024 about friends and money. They found that 23% of people who took the survey said they had lost a friend over money. And 26%, both these are in about the one-fifth to one-quarter, felt that they were uncomfortably different financially from their friends.

So let's talk about several areas where friendship and money can come crosswise. I want to start with a common one. You go out for dinner with friends or a friend, and you sit down. Do you decide, number one, will somebody treat? Well, usually that person has to speak up then. And so someone has to speak up, and then someone else. There's this image from movies of people fighting over the check, and that's kind of cute. You've seen it. They're fighting over the check.

Katie: I've lived it.

Kirtly: Will somebody treat? Will you split the bill, or do you do separate checks? And if you wait until the end, that's where they fight over the check thing. It can get awkward. And it is awkward for the server.

Now, a bright server might set the ground rules at the beginning with the question chirpy, "Will we be doing separate checks?" Actually, I really like it when they sort of set the ground rules at the beginning, because at that point, it's my opportunity to say, "My treat," or the other person to say, "You treated last time. It's my treat," or, "Yes, we'd like separate checks."

Anyway, I like to treat and I like to be treated. There are dopamine hits for each. It feels wonderful if I can treat my friends to dinner, and it is luscious if they treat me. But how do you figure that out?

Katie: Hey, I'm going to have to take you to dinner. I mean, I guess the best thing is to talk about it ahead of time, right? I do that sometimes to say, "I want to go to dinner with you. It's my treat."

I don't like it when I get to the end of a meal, and somebody wants to either pick up my tab or split the check, and I didn't know that was coming, because I will usually order the extravagant thing on the menu. I'm that person. Honestly, the food that I like tends to be the expensive one. But if I didn't know at the outset that they were planning to pick up my tab, then I feel really bad about having overordered.

I have some friends that I go out to dinner with. We go out on our birthdays, and so I know if they pick up the check one time that I'll get it the next time, and it's going to come out in the wash as time goes by.

But I definitely like it if the plan is clear ahead of time, because that may influence what I eat.

Kirtly: Yeah, the end kind of wrecks the dinner to me if it's uncomfortable at the end.

Well, how about splitting the bill? That's my least favorite. It feels fair, but some folks add a drink, or maybe two, Katie, if you're the over-orderer, and some don't drink. Some have a starter and some don't. And some have dessert, hopefully with enough spoons for everybody to have one. How do you split that one up? Some, like me, who's always watching my calories, just do with a starter.

Splitting the bill means someone who's trying to keep costs on the low side might end up paying for more than they planned. And that would be brave to speak up and just pay for what they thought they would owe.

I've been to dinners where that's a waste, that somebody kind of figures out what they might owe and they put money in the center, or they put a credit card, and it's a mess. It's just a mess. We're doing higher math while I'm really overstuffed, and maybe I've had a drink and maybe some . . . I mean, I'm just not thinking well to do numbers at that point, and somebody at the table has to be the mathematician.

So, anyway, I am very careful about assessing my dopamine hits. We've heard about dopamine hits a lot in this friendship series, 7 Domains of Friendship. So don't forget to go back to the early ones about what friends are all about and how they make you feel inside.

Katie: You've mentioned dopamine hits from both treating and being treated. And I have to be honest, I'm not sure I experience it that way. I mean, treating feels good, genuinely good. So maybe that is just the dopamine part. But being treated, that's a lot more complicated for me.

I actually have a hard time letting somebody take care of me in any way, shape, or form. I'm self-aware and I know that that's probably some kind of childhood poverty trauma that I need to work on in therapy. But if I'm being treated, it can feel like less that that's lovely and they're generous, and more like I'm the charity case, I'm dependent. And I struggle with that. So I'm much happier if I'm the one picking up the tab.

Kirtly: Oh. Well, the least complicated, but no dopamine hits.

Katie: Yeah.

Kirtly: And I think it's the most fair as separate checks, as long as everyone thought that was the plan from the outset.

Going out to dinner is just expensive these days. Having not gone out over the years and years of COVID, it's been years since I've been out until recently, and lo and behold, I'm a little appalled at what things cost. So, I'm a fan of potlucks. In fact, I like the potlucks where you bring your own plate, so the person who's hosting it doesn't even have to do dishes.

Anyway, back to the Bread Financial survey, 65% of people who filled out the survey said they'd broken their budgets when they went out with a friend. Things like eating out or birthday celebrations or . . .

Katie: Or destination weddings. I'm not in the age group where I'm going to so many weddings, but my kids are. My one son had two destination weddings, both in Venice, this year. I mean, that's just . . . I don't know. That's crazy to me.

Kirtly: And did they pay for it? I figured that if you're going to have a destination wedding, you should pay for everyone. So only jillionaires can afford that.

A $70,000 wedding? Is that a good idea? I hope it's a good investment. Part of me says, "I hope these people stay married for a long time, because this is a very tricky investment."

Katie: No, guests had to get themselves there.

Kirtly: Oh, geez. That's terrible.

So, anyway, what do you do? Back to separate checks. Stay within your budget. And it's hard if everyone's drinking alcohol in bars and restaurants. It's expensive, but you can stand your own ground on your own budget.

Now, the other thing that happens with friends is financial inequality, which is part of this thing about what happens at dinners and bars and stuff. But this financial inequality can put up a fence in a friendship. You have more than they do, or you have less than they do, or you don't know what they do. They pick fancier places to eat, or they talk about their very expensive vacations to exotic places, or maybe they share about their new expensive beauty products or activities.

Do you know what a facial costs? It's a lot of money. I mean, my goodness.

Anyway, the psychologists who think about this say that keeping an open conversation about money can help us get over the fence of unease about disparities. But how do you start about this?

Movies and books and social media are all about the lifestyle of billionaires, and we love to look and read about it. What's wrong with us that we look at this overconsumption with such interest or envy?

One of the biggest barriers to happiness in countries based on the Happiness Index is when there is great and well-documented and advertised disparities between people and those they perceive are at the top. So how do you manage that with a friend?

Well, can we talk about money? And this is a quote. "Can we talk about money? I'm not rich-rich, but I'm comfortable, and I love to treat you. Can we talk about that?" Or, and this is me quoting. "I'm on a tight budget. I'd love to go out with you, but I can't treat very often. Can we talk about this?" These are just some suggestions if you feel confident enough to broach it.

There are cultures where a person's status is defined by what they give away. There are expectations that people with more share with the whole group. And the higher you are in the political structure of these cultures, the more you're expected to give away.

Katie: That does not sound like our political structure.

Kirtly: No. Potlatches. There are special events where much stuff is given away. And that isn't an expectation. I guess you're expecting fidelity or fealty, some kind of loyalty in return. Anyway, that's not an expectation in our culture, although giving to charities or giving to nonprofits is sort of expected, even if in little amounts. At least in my social group, it's expected that you give money to nonprofits or charities. I'll hit you up about that later, Katie.

I mean, I have a hard time asking people to support nonprofits that I'm on the board for. It's like asking people to give money for a good cause. I'm terrible at that.

Katie: Yeah, it's hard.

Kirtly: I'm terrible. Well, how about lending money or giving money to a friend? And this is a common reason for discomfort in a friendship. Asking for a loan or a gift of money is difficult. And among boomers, that's me, it's almost impossible. I mean, even GoFundMe requests make me queasy. Now, you can tell that I really live by my gut. I get dopamine hits and my tummy feels uneasy. Between my autonomic nervous system and my . . . I'm run by my gut.

Well, back to the survey. Seventy percent of millennials have borrowed money from friends, whereas only 38% of boomers said they had. And lending money can break up friendships. Fifty-seven percent of people reported borrowing money from friends mostly to pay bills. And one-third said they never repaid the money. One-third said that repeated lending of money without repayment was a driver of tensions in the friendship.

And the good news is women are less likely than men to let money be divisive in a relationship. So good on us girls.

So what to do? If someone asks you for money, your friend, and you can't afford it, or you just don't want to, just say no. You don't have to explain. Just say, "I really . . . I can't."

And if you're going to lend money, sit down and talk about it. Say, "Can we talk about this? How much? Do you want a loan? How would you like to repay the loan?" Then maybe write it down for both of you.

If you're the borrower, ask your friend if you can borrow some money and tell them what it's for, if you can. I think of all the books and movies where the money was used to blackmail or kidnapping, but in real life, it's probably not that and you can tell them, if you're borrowing money, what it's for.

If you're borrowing money, come with a plan of how you're going to pay it back. And if you're the lender and the amount of money is small, maybe $20 for their part of a lunch, maybe it would be good to let it go and they don't pay it back.

If it's a lot of money and you need it, be straightforward and remind them of how they agreed to pay it back. Remember, you kind of wrote it down. And see what they'd like to do now. Say, "Well, we talked about you repaying the money, and I kind of need it now." Put it on them. You can say, "How would you like to do this now? Because I'm kind of needing the money back."

Katie: I mean, the generational difference is interesting, isn't it? I think I'm a tail end of the boomer. Somebody just renamed that middle generation. I can't remember what it's called. There's a little gap between the end of the boomers and the next generation up, and I think I fall into that foot in both worlds.

Younger people feel somewhat more comfortable borrowing money than . . . I would just go to the bank. It wouldn't be something I would bring into my friend world, I don't think.

Kirtly: No. I've lent money in my friend world, but I wouldn't borrow money in my friend world.

Katie: Yeah. But maybe for the younger generations, it's because some of the financial structures feel less stable, or maybe it's because some of the tools that we have. So GoFundMe is sort of a newer thing that some people feel more comfortable if you've grown up in that internet world that us older folks maybe don't. Or Venmo. My credit card now has a thing where you can split the bill with people. It's just sort of built into apps that you have on your phone and stuff. And so maybe that makes it easier to ask for money.

My daughter owed me some money for something that I bought, and she said, "Well, just send me a Venmo request."

Kirtly: Oh, geez.

Katie: I was like, "Oh, okay. That's how it works."

Kirtly: I'm definitely a boomer. I'm off that.

Katie: So maybe it's a difference in the tools that are out there. But I think that the borrowing and lending money between friends can really change the dynamic. And it's not so much about whether it gets repaid as whether you still feel like equals when those kinds of situations arise.

Kirtly: Well, I think another thing is supporting people's businesses for friends. So your friend has a business, and maybe you feel compelled to go to their salon, or maybe you didn't need a facial, but . . . So you want to support them, but you really don't want that facial right now, or you don't want it, but you know that they're struggling and you want to support them. There's that.

And then there's competitive spending, keeping up with the Joneses. Well, I'm a Jones and I don't really get that, but I guess it's a thing. I don't think I would . . . If my friends were doing a certain thing that was particularly expensive or showy or a new fancy car, I would feel completely uncompelled to keep up with anyone.

Do you think keeping up with the Joneses is still a thing anymore?

Katie: Oh, I totally think it is. My neighbor across the street just did some outrageous holiday porch decorating, and I sort of felt compelled to buy a bunch more pumpkins for my porch. Usually, I get one lonely pumpkin. This year, I have five.

Kirtly: Oh, gosh. Well, you can leave it out for the birds or the turkeys or whatever.

Katie: My chickens will like it.

Kirtly: Well, anyway, I think about competitive spending, and I think it's difficult for me to really get a grasp around that. I don't have much envy in me about things, but I think people do, or they have their status in an expensive vacation or stuff like that. Anyway, I think planning expensive vacations without finding out if your friends can afford it . . . So, that's a big deal.

Katie: I've been thinking about that one a lot because I tend to take my vacations alone, and I was thinking about why is that? But it's something specific happening in later life where financial inequality is more complicated.

I think about it as kind of a Venn diagram with three circles. There's having the time to do things, there's having the money to do things, and then there's having the physical ability to do things. So all of those factor into a vacation in particular for me.

When I was younger, those things tended to overlap. Everybody has energy, nobody has money, nobody has time, but you're kind of all in the same place.

But now I find myself in this place in my 60s where those circles are really diverging and the amount of overlap . . . And I have a Venn diagram for all the different people in my life, right? But they start to diverge.

I'm working full-time, so I have some time off. I actually have a generous amount of vacation, but I can only take it in certain weeks. So I have to go on vacation in this week. I don't have a lot of flexibility about that.

I'm making good money, and physically I'm still healthy enough and flexible enough that I can crawl into an airplane seat for a long time or do something adventurous when I get there.

But many of my friends, I'm in this space where many of my friends are retired and they have lots of time, but they're watching their budgets more carefully. And then other people might have both the time and the money, but their health limits what we could do together, the kinds of travel that they want to do.

So I think that sweet spot for vacations in particular is when all those things align, when you have the time, the resources, and the physical ability to do it. It gets more precarious as you age.

Kirtly: Oh, Katie, I would just love to go travel with you. I have money and I have time, but I'll meet you at the end of the day at the place where we're staying, and you can tell me all about your adventures over a delicious dinner and a drink. How's that?

Katie: That sounds good.

Kirtly: I'll wander the village at my own speed. You go have an adventure. We'll meet together in the evening.

Katie: Okay. So that's the tricky thing, though, is finding somebody that can travel at the pace that . . . And as I've done this alone, I kind of get used to it. It's like, "Oh, I'm not liking this museum. I'm going to move on," or, "I'm not ready to stop for a meal. I'll just catch one later," or, "I'm starving. I've got to eat right now," and I can kind of indulge that. But I do miss the company of somebody to share it with.

But it's not just about whether you can afford the fancy restaurant or the fancy trip. It's about whether or not you're in the life stage where those things are possible. And this financial inequality isn't just happening in isolation. It's tangled up with how we're aging and whether we're still working and what our bodies can do.

And just teasing an episode that's coming up in the future, I think we've also lost a lot of environments that used to naturally equalize some of those differences.

Kirtly: Yeah.

Katie: When we were raising kids and the kids were in the same school and everyone was in the same workplace, you had built-in spaces where you'd see each other regardless of who could afford what.

But as you get kind of away from those stages of life, you have to be a lot more intentional about creating spaces where friendships can happen in spite of those differences.

And I think traditions are really important. I like the potluck idea, and I think regardless of how things are shaping up in people's financial lives, a tradition of having a potluck together over a certain occasion or just because is a really nice way to maintain the connections.

Kirtly: Yeah, I think important friendships are too important to fall out over money. But that's what I'm thinking. I may not know what my friend is thinking. So if money is an issue, I want to talk about it.

If this podcast touches a tender spot, maybe another friend or family member can help you practice talking it out. Or share it with friends and families to start a conversation. But maybe it's just too tender and you can't do it just now.

Thanks for joining us on the Financial Domain of Friendship. And check out our other domains of this very important topic that is vital to our health and well-being. You can join us at womens7.com, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And Katie, let's go out for lunch. My treat. No, wait a minute. Katie, you can treat.

Katie: I can treat. Okay, you're on.