E77: The Financial Domain of Exploring

Katie: The writer, Susan Sontag, said, "I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list." Welcome back to the "7 Domains of Women's Health," where we're exploring exploring. Today, we're talking about the financial domain of exploring.

I'm Dr. Katie Ward. I'm a professor at the College of Nursing and an inveterate traveler. And with me today is Dr. Kirtly Jones, who is . . .

Kirtly: I'm a reproductive endocrinologist, which means I'm a reproductive hormone specialist and OB/GYN. And I am a cognitive explorer, not a sensory explorer, meaning I explore with my brain. I've done my worldly exploring when I was younger, living internationally on three continents before high school. But it's my curious mind that does the exploring mostly these days. Although I love to hear stories, other people's stories, and Katie is the best storyteller.

Katie: I do love traveling in particular. But as we've talked about, we're not just talking about traveling. Exploring can take many forms. And while we might focus a lot on traveling in this particular episode, I hope you'll take a listen to our other episodes in the 7 Domains of Exploring, where we've talked about the physical, the social, emotional, intellectual, and environmental domains. And you're going to get some great ideas about how to explore whether you leave home or whether you explore cognitively, like Kirtly.

So today, whether it's financing a trip or a new hobby or an education, there's a cost to those explorations. Aphorisms on the internet tell us to invest in experiences, not things. But here today to help us figure out how to invest is Elsa Osborne. Elsa is an accredited financial counselor with the University of Utah.

Katie: Elsa, we are really excited to have you. And maybe you could start by telling us a little bit about what you do and your background that prepared you to do it.

Elsa: Yes. Thank you so much. So I am an accredited financial counselor, like you said, at the University of Utah Financial Wellness Center. So we support students wherever they're at on their financial journeys. I'm the program coordinator there, so I also oversee all of our workshops and programs.

And then I graduated . . . my degree is in health, society, and policy. Any time I get to talk about health and finances together, it's a good day for me. So I'm really happy to be here, and I would say that I align more also with cognitive explorer.

Katie: Great to have you here. So today what we want to do is talk about the financial impacts of exploring. I think where we wanted to start was a little bit from that idea of investing in experiences, not things. What is the long-term value and the return on making room for exploring in your budget?

Elsa: Well, I'll start by talking about we know that there can be health benefits, like building community. I'm most familiar with the research that's been done on climbing and how that impacts well-being. But as far as research that's been done on finances and life satisfaction, there hasn't been much.

But from my experience working with students, one thing I've seen is we ask on our intake, "Do you set and work toward financial goals?" And a lot of students will check they're unsure, or no, they don't. But then I'll meet with them, and as we're chatting, they'll tell me, "Oh, I'm wanting to study abroad this summer," or, "Oh, I'm wanting to travel coming up soon." I say, "That's a financial goal."

And so I like to lean into that and use that motivation to travel and explore as a motivator to set and work toward financial goals.

Kirtly: I have a question from the other end of the age spectrum, and that is, I know in retirement many people plan on traveling, but for women, they may or may not know what resources they have. Many women who've been in a traditional married relationship may not know what resources they have. Their partner managed it all, and they don't know what might be available for them to explore with or without their partner. Maybe they say, "I am now 60, and I want to go without that person. I want to go by myself, or with my girlfriend," or whatever.

So for women who are not partnered through choice or death or divorce, they may need to take a careful look at their exploring budget. Can you talk a little bit about women who are a little bit older or how women can save compared to men?

Elsa: I love that you bring this up, because women on average live longer. So in the U.S., it's five years longer, and then if we look worldwide, it's seven years longer. But women are at the highest risk for not having enough saved for retirement or invested for retirement.

So what do we do about that? One thing is just having these conversations and talking about it and making it known that, as women, we can save, we can invest, and we can explore when we retire. We can also incorporate that throughout our lives.

Katie: Let's work from that. You've got somebody who wants to travel or wants to do a study abroad or wants to travel in their retirement. How should people calculate their exploration budget as part of their overall financing? How much money should you allocate to adventures?

Elsa: This is where personal finance is personal. There is no right or wrong way to budget, and especially for exploring and travel.

So I like to start with a couple of steps. Those of you listening, the first step is to identify your values. And I'm sure everyone listening values exploring and things like that. So that's one.

Then also think about other things. Do you value security? Do you value your family? Do you value your health or paying off debt? We want to also incorporate our holistic financial plan into our budget.

Then once you've identified your values, you can look and start putting those into goals. So short, medium, and long term.

And then from there, we have to prioritize things. So it could be, "I want to go on a trip next year, and I want to finish paying off this debt with my credit card," or, "Then in the next 10 years, I want to pay off all my student loans." And then you can create a budget. That is where it is really personal.

So what I'm about to say, take it as a tool, not a rule. It's called the 50/30/20 budget. Have you heard of it?

Katie: No.

Kirtly: No. That sounds . . . Go for it.

Elsa: Okay. So that is when you have your income, and then 50% would go toward your basic needs, and then 30% goes to wants. I like to call it "fun money." And then 20% for saving and investing. So then you could think about putting your exploring budget into that saving portion.

However, the cost of living can be really high, especially right now. And so maybe your basic needs are taking up 80% of your budget, and then maybe you want to save 5%. We work with that, and we lean into that. There's not a right or wrong way to do it. We want our budgets to work for us and help us create a life full of the things that we love rather than the other way around.

Kirtly: Well, when I think about people who are going to go somewhere, they'll calculate their travel expenses. It could be their car, bus, plane, and maybe their shelter and some food. But there are a lot of toys or necessities as part of your experiences.

So some people have hobbies, like maybe professional photographer gear. How do you begin to think about whether the gear that you're getting will actually provide long-term value? Because if you get good gear, then you might be able to use it for several trips.

I invested in some snorkel goggles with prescription lenses, and yes, they have those things for those of us who are visually challenged underwater and over water. They were the best travel gear I ever bought because I could take them for trip after trip after trip. And as soon as I put my face in the water, whether it was in a local lake or a distant coral reef, I could see stuff. It was a great investment, but it wasn't in my original budget. Then all of a sudden, here was a $300 investment for our travel that I hadn't planned.

So how do you think about the toy parts or the necessities of your hobby?

Elsa: Yeah, I love that. That sounds like it was a great purchase. I think it's about finding this balance between doing what you can, planning where you can, and a budget is just a form of planning, but also leaving room for life to happen and spur-of-the-moment things.

As far as an actionable thing I like to tell people about to help with that is you can create sinking funds for your hobbies. So, for example, I really like to do yoga, and so I could create a sinking fund for new yoga clothes or new yoga props. And that way, then I'm automatically funding it out of every paycheck. And then over time, I'm like, "Oh, I have $200 now in this account," and it's kind of a gift from past me that now I have this money to spend on my hobbies.

Kirtly: Oh, I like that.

Katie: So what's a sinking fund? I should know this, but I don't. So would you tell me what a sinking fund is?

Elsa: I feel like a lot of people don't know what sinking funds are. I love categorizing all my things, which I feel like isn't talked about a lot. So that is basically just a savings account, but you're funding it, and then it's meant to sink over time. So maybe then I do buy the yoga clothes, but then I could keep funding it again, and then I could use it again in the future.

Kirtly: We used to call that mad money, by the way, Katie.

Katie: Yes, I think I would know it as mad money.

Kirtly: Well, I think a great thing about being at a university is . . . So you want to go on a backpacking trip, and you think, "Oh my gosh, this new tent is going to be $800, but I want this tent. And then I have to get a sleeping bag. Oh, please give me a cushion that's actually comfortable." And I think, "I won't be able to afford all that." But at The U, you actually could even rent them. You can buy used gear, or you can rent them someplace. Can you talk about that?

Elsa: Yes. So for those of you who are in Salt Lake or at The U, you can go to . . . they have the Outdoor Adventures rental shop. You can rent things like paddleboards. I think snowshoes, too. That's a great option.

And then as far as buying gear, you could buy used gear. And then if you are starting out with a new hobby or even if you've started freelancing maybe for photography, I like to start with the basics. So get the basics, and then over the course of a few years, you can upgrade. But start with the basics.

Kirtly: Yeah, master the basics because you don't want to get master's equipment when you can't even master the basics.

Elsa: Yes.

Katie: There are so many places now where you can buy used equipment and just whole movements of things. Facebook, I mean, you can buy everything on Facebook these days, but there's a whole "buy nothing" movement where you trade in exchange for clothes and gear.

And so it's one of the things I think the internet has done well for us, is to make more things available where you might be able to swap them.

There's a church in town where once or twice a year, you bring in the stuff you want to get rid of and take away other people's stuff that you like. So I think there are lots of ways to begin to explore a new hobby or interest without taking a deep dive into the costs.

Elsa: Totally.

Kirtly: The other thing is the sharing economy. I think it's ridiculous that everybody in our little lane has their own snowblower. Now, it's true that maybe a third of us on any snowy morning are using our snowblowers, but the other third isn't, and they could do it in the afternoon. But everybody's got their own.

Things like camping equipment, you're not camping 24/7/365. So if somebody came to me and said, "Gosh, can we borrow your camping gear?" I'd say, "Sure. I'm not using it now. Bring it back in good shape or in better shape than you found it."

So the sharing economy, I think that's much better with younger people than sometimes with older people who think they have to own it. I think younger people are much more wisely into sharing.

Katie: I lived in a neighborhood for a while where we had a shed that was in the front of our house and we gave everybody the combination. It housed our lawnmower, our snowblower, our edger, and everybody just used it and then we all chipped in together to buy a new one when we needed to. But it was a neighborhood investment.

Kirtly: Yeah. That's so wise. That's the best of community.

Elsa: I love that. My twin sister, she has all this gear, so I'll . . . I love that, the share economy. You can share.

Katie: And being your twin, it fits you, right?

Elsa: Yeah, it fits me.

Katie: That's awesome. While we're on this thread, let's think some more. So you mentioned the University of Utah's Outdoor Adventures shop, but that's just for university-affiliated people. So we were going to think some more about some other budget opportunities. So a couple that we had on our list here. One was Public Lands, BLM. That's a place you can camp or explore without paying a fee. Is that how that works?

Elsa: Yeah, you can . . . I was talking to my twin sister about this because, again, she's an avid explorer. She said she loves looking at the BLM site, and you can find activities there. And another thing you can do is go to this site called Meetup, and you can find hiking groups and other community groups for free in your area.

Katie: And if you really want to just stay on your couch, you can get on your computer and drill down on just about any place from Google Earth.

Kirtly: That's called Map Exploring.

Katie: Map Exploring, I like that. I've done this as I've been planning a trip to sort of get a feel for what it's going to look like when I get there. If I have an address of an Airbnb where I'm going to be staying, I'll try and find it from Google Earth.

I know I've dissed a lot on this podcast about the time sink of social media, but there are a lot of really beautiful things to look at there. So one of my favorites is the James Webb Telescope. That's a post that I follow on Instagram if I want to see the whole cosmos. The pictures coming back from that are just amazing.

There's another site that's the Beauty of Nature in Africa, and it's just pictures of landscapes and animals in Africa. That's a favorite.

And then a recent one that I just heard about and now I'm following is one called No Lonely Roads. And this photographs rock art sites in the Four Corners area. No words, no discussion, no rants, or anything. These are all just Instagram posts of beautiful places.

Elsa: I love that.

Katie: It gives me a quick getaway.

Elsa: One thing I want to add with that is I encourage those of you listening to think about what type of explorer you are, and then what is the root cause of why you're wanting to travel. Maybe it's that you do want to go and try those different places, or it could be that you're burnt out from school or work and you just need a staycation. And then you can take elements of the trip that you're eventually going to go on and bring it right to where you are. You could go on a hike, or you could go to your local community garden and pull elements of that.

Katie: I love that. That's a great idea.

Kirtly: I'm terrible. I'm the person that you don't necessarily want to travel with because if I'm going on a big trip, I've read three or four books about it. I mean the place, the natural history, any novels, even junk novels written at that landscape. So I come prepared with whole little mini lectures on these whales or that particular bird in the Everglades. And so I can spend a whole lot of time exploring in the six months before we go with my nose in a book.

Katie: I think I do a bit of the same.

Elsa: Me too.

Katie: So I'd be happy to travel with you, Kirtly.

How do you think someone can build exploration into their lifestyle without compromising their financial stability? We've talked about saving for it, obviously, but I think sometimes people get an idea and go on a trip and end up with a big credit card debt.

Elsa: Yes. I think starting with where you're at and taking things in small pieces. So maybe you start with . . . Maybe you're a student right now or maybe you're in medical residency, and so right now your income isn't as much as it's going to be in the future. And so planning to go on a smaller-scale trip, and then you can look forward to a bigger trip when you graduate or something like that.

Katie: I used to do these things with my kids when they were a bit younger where we would take on just a county in Utah. We had a Box Elder day, and Box Elder was pretty fun. We went up and saw the Spiral Jetty and the Golden Spike and had a meal at Maddox in Brigham City. So it was a memorable day.

There was a trip to see trilobites and topaz out in Millard County, which was another fun . . . We sort of pick a county and see what we can pack in just county-specific.

Elsa: That's great.

Kirtly: But there's a book that you can get for state to state in terms of exploring, and this one is called "Explore Utah." It has all the counties and what you could do in this county. And so you did it on your own. You did it on the cheap, Katie, with you and your kids. You can do it with a little book or give that little book. It has places you can put the postcards, so you can build your own wonderful story after you've been there with any little pictures or postcards or any items that you could stick in a book and make it that way.

I have some questions mostly about . . . So let's say you're out someplace and you're far away and you get appendicitis, or you are hiking and you sprain your ankle or, God forbid, you break your arm. What kinds of insurance should people consider when they're traveling or pursuing adventure activities? Do you know if your health insurance even covers you while you're traveling nationally or internationally? And what does that coverage look like?

Sure as shooting, you're going out on this big adventure, and there's always a chance to trip and fall or get traveler's diarrhea or, who knows, drink too much and make some kind of error in judgment, and there you are and you need some medical help. Do you talk about that, or do you know things about insurance?

Elsa: Yes, and this is such an important part of planning for a trip. Not always the funnest one, but very important. So whenever we're talking about risk, there are three things we can do. We can reduce the risk, we can assume the risk, or we can transfer the risk.

Kirtly: Oh, I like that.

Elsa: With transferring the risk, that's where insurance comes in. And then sometimes in healthcare, it's called cost sharing. So maybe you would be assuming part of the risk, but not the whole thing.

So these are things to look out for when you are looking for maybe a travel insurance policy. What are their cancellation fees that they would charge you? And then would they cover adventure seekers? So if you're actively seeking adventure, you want to find a policy that would cover that, because that's the whole point. That's why we're looking for the travel insurance.

And then the other thing is if you're traveling for work, start with your employer and see what policies they already have. Maybe they even require it.

So my aunt is a professor, and she travels for work all the time. She travels internationally a lot. Through her employer, it's actually required, and then they have protocol of what would happen if there was an emergency. So definitely see what your employer would cover if you're exploring as part of your job.

Kirtly: Elsa, say that again, because I think that was very well said. You can accept the risk, you can . . .

Elsa: So reduce. That could be like if you're climbing, the protective gear that you have, wearing a helmet. So reducing the risk. And then assume the risk. So you're taking that risk on. And then transferring the risk. That would be through insurance.

Kirtly: Yeah, I think that's great.

Katie: I guess the other thing is to have a little bit of an emergency fund or something. What do you recommend people have as far as a backup plan?

Elsa: Definitely incorporate that into your travel budget, or if you're just starting out, your emergency fund in general. And that looks like three to six months' worth of living expenses. And then if you have a family, I would go closer to 9 to 12 months' worth of living expenses.

Kirtly: Elsa, what percent of Americans have that? Do you know?

Elsa: So 5% to 10% of people have an emergency fund.

Kirtly: I think that young people never think anything bad is going to happen to them, and it happens all the time. And maybe their parents are their backup emergency fund. But for many, they don't, and they don't think . . . The great thing about being young is that you never think bad stuff is going to happen to you. But I can't encourage people too much to have an emergency fund just in the kind of amounts that you said. It's hard, I know.

Katie: I mean, there's some study . . . I don't remember now exactly, but most people would have a hard time coming up with $1,000 for a car repair, much less six months of expenses.

Kirtly: Yeah. So, Katie, do you accumulate travel rewards, or do you put things on your credit card so that you can get miles?

Katie: This is my personal thing that I wanted to talk to Elsa about, travel rewards cards. So I do travel a lot, and I think I get my money's worth out of my travel reward card, but it just was the month when the renewal fee. So I pay a fee every year, kind of a big one, to have this particular rewards card. I think that it's worth it. That's my bias.

I get a companion ticket anywhere in the United States. So if I'm going somewhere, I can take somebody for free. And I get so many accesses to the Sky Lounge, which has served me well when I've had a flight cancelled and needed a place to get a meal and take a shower.

And once, I had a really tight connection and they met me at the door of the airplane with a security person and a black SUV. I didn't have to go through the airport. They took me down the stairs, into an SUV on the tarmac, drove me to the back of the waiting plane that was going to Australia, and I didn't have to go through the airport, through the international thing. It was worth it. So I think the money was worth it for that one rescue.

Elsa: I know.

Katie: I told my daughter this story, and she said, "At any point, did you think you were getting kidnapped?" No, actually, it didn't occur to me. I was like, "I was getting the VIP treatment I deserved."

So, for me, I think I can justify the fee on my card. And then what goes along with that card is a high interest rate. So I try not to use it. I actually use it for things I'm going to pay anyway. So I'm racking up points, but paying the card off anyway. I try not to carry a balance on that card.

So, anyway, I know other people who are deep in the rewards card trading. They're recommending them for friends and getting some points because their friend signs up and . . . That's too much. I can't handle that. What advice do you give people about getting into a travel reward card scheme?

Elsa: Well, all of what you just said, you've hit on some really important things. The first thing you mentioned, it has a fee. But for you, you travel a lot, and you've kind of reaped the benefits of it, and that seems to have really worked out for you.

My other question for you, Katie, is does it have a minimum spend amount on it in order to get the points?

Katie: No, but if I want to get sky miles, I have to spend so much. And in order to get status, I have to spend an awful lot. I never hit that on spending. I sometimes hit it because I fly to a lot of places, but . . .

Elsa: Yeah, that was the other thing that I'd encourage people to think about. It sounds like for you that is a great option.

But for those of you listening, the things to think about are, is it worth it for you? Are you traveling a lot? And then are there fees associated with it? Just because there are fees, though, doesn't mean it's bad or you shouldn't do it. It's just is it worth paying that fee every year?

And then the last thing to think about is what other credit cards do you have? Because you want to work your way up. So one of my colleagues, she is very similar to you, Katie. She travels a lot, and she's got, I think, multiple travel cards, but she has worked her way up to that point.

So for those of you that are just starting out exploring maybe getting a travel card, look into the cash back ones. Start there. And as you travel more, then you can think about getting a travel card. It might have a fee with it, and you want to look at the requirements in order to get the points. And so work your way up to that point.

Katie: Very cool. Thank you. Elsa, this has been so great talking to you. It's really been helpful. Is there anything else you want to tell us about that balance of exploring and budgeting?

Elsa: One thing I want people to take away from this is that the money is so much more than the math, and it comes down to what your values are and who you are as a person.

And so we can use budgeting as a tool to explore and do it in a way that we know that our other financial goals are being taken care of. We can find this balance between exploring and then also your other financial goals.

Katie: And because our podcast is about women specifically, are there specific issues you talk about with women?

Elsa: I think just starting the conversation and encouraging women to be proactive. And if you have a partner, one thing you could do is even just keep at least one account separate, and then you're always building those habits.

But just be proactive. You can do this thing called a money check-in. So you can do it every week or every month where you sit down . . . Maybe it's just you or maybe it is your partner, and you can look over your financial goals together and your spending, see where you're at, and just have a check-in with yourself and your partner.

Katie: Yeah, I like that. I wish I'd learned that sooner.

Just to recap, we've touched on some things that are unique to women. One is knowing that you're going to live a long time and maybe outlive your partner. And so you might need more in your retirement savings, and you might have a little more opportunity for exploring. And so building a little bit bigger budget there.

Elsa, I think you've talked about this a little bit as well, is that those opportunities are going to grow. And so exploring isn't something you have to do . . . you can do it in small steps and stages and grow it over your lifetime. I think those are all really good pieces of advice for all of us.

Will you tell us just a little bit about the Financial Wellness Center and what you guys do there for our listeners who are affiliated with the University of Utah?

Elsa: Yes. So we serve students, both undergrad and grad. And then if you have recently graduated, we will meet with you for up to two years after you've graduated. You can go to financialwellness.utah.edu, and you can schedule an appointment there.

Then as far as other community support, because we serve students, you can find an accredited financial counselor to meet with at findanafc.org.

Katie: Awesome. Chloe, maybe we can put that in the show notes for our listeners, because that seems like a really nice service for anybody to be able to access. But I'm glad we're doing that at The U for our students, especially for students who are getting in debt to go to school.

Elsa: Yeah.

Katie: Elsa, thank you for sharing your expertise with us today on the 7 Domains of Exploring. We're really hoping this helps our listeners find ways to explore and grow and save for their own adventures.

Elsa: Yes. Thanks for having me.

Kirtly: And for all of our listeners, finding a way to make a physical exploration possible is important for all of you who are curious and engaged in the world and want to see it in person.

If you are a podcast explorer, check in with all of our 7 Domains of Exploring or our other "7 Domains of Women's Health" podcasts at womens7.com, or wherever you get your podcasts of the "7 Domains of Women's Health."

Happy exploring to all of you.