S1E15: Navigating Pressures of Body Image

Margaux: Chloe, I don't want it. Chloe.

Leen: What are we?

Chloe: Divas.

Margaux: I mean, you created us, so . . .

Chloe: Fifty percent.

Bushra: She said only 50% us. I wonder what she's talking about.

Leen: I think it's time to do a producer appreciation podcast.

Margaux: We love you, Chloe.

Harjit: Okay.

Chloe: All right.

Harjit: Welcome to the "Bundle of Hers." This is Harjit. In the studio today, we have Bushra, Margaux, and Leen. It's Margaux's birthday.

Bushra: Happy birthday.

Harjit: Yay.

Margaux: Thank you.

Harjit: So, as many of you already know, we have an Instagram page. If you don't, you should follow us. It's @bundleofhers. One thing that we started noticing is it took us a long time to kind of get into the groove of posting stuff on Instagram. But also, we would take a lot of pictures and then only pick our favorites.

But it kind of got us thinking the pressures we feel of selecting the right photograph, but again, still telling our story. I think there's a balance between that, but also this kind of pull back and forth of what we should post versus what we feel is true to ourselves. And I think we've been trying to be as true to ourselves as possible.

And that kind of thought pushed us to want to have a discussion on body image and kind of how we see ourselves or how people see us and how the two don't match up all the time.

Margaux: Yeah. So I think it's interesting when . . . there are four of us, right? And when we post a group picture, it always takes a long time to pick a picture that we all think we each look good in. And that kind of sparks what you were talking about, Harjit, the pressures that we feel, maybe the outside pressures that each of us feel of the way we should look in a photograph. That differs between each of us. And so, when we all come together to pick one picture, we tend to take a long time.

And so I think that's what Harjit's saying, is that takes . . . It's interesting we want to talk about and explore further the thought process between the pressures that may be good or bad that we feel when we're deciding what to put on social media. But then how we feel about our own body image, too.

In the age of social media, there's so much pressure on women, especially, to look a certain way. And I think we all tend to fall into it. And so maybe we can talk about ways to combat it as well.

Harjit: Right.

Bushra: I think you bring up an excellent point because it does take us a while to choose the photos that we want to post, because we're all so self-critical of ourselves. But we look at everybody else and like, "Oh, you guys look so amazing, but I look awful," or something like that. I feel like we've all, at one point, said something like that.

But I think that's just kind of a testament to this facade that I feel like some of us, or all of us, really, kind of have to play into. We're so afraid of posting a picture that looks bad because in the age of social media, you want to put your best foot forward. And that doesn't necessarily encompass you as a person, per se, all facets of your life, including the imperfections. So I just think that's very interesting.

Harjit: So I kind of have a question for all you. At what age do you think you started noticing that you're a person that someone can notice, or that you have an image?

Leen: Fourteen.

Bushra: That's a weirdly specific age, Leen. Do you want to elaborate?

Leen: So my neighbor was a really good friend of mine. And what happened was it was around 14 when, all of a sudden, every time he would come over to ask if we could play, my parents would say, "Don't answer the door. Leen, go inside," or they would tell him "No," or they'd kick him away.

And then that same year, when I went to Palestine, the cat-calling was kind of what I . . . I started actually noticing cat-calling. Not specifically towards me or anything, but I noticed it in the street. I'd noticed it with other women, I noticed with other girls, and I noticed a lot of my cousins would be like . . . they'd notice it as well, and they'd point it out to me. And so that's kind of when I was like, "Wait, how long has this been going on for?" So I think that's when I was thrown from the safety zone into "you're now a female" zone.

Harjit: So, Leen, can you explain to me how your background has impacted the way you view yourself image-wise?

Leen: There are two sides to it. On one side, women were meant to be beautiful, and at the same time, that's the side you can only show to family. And so you have to hide your good features in public. And so at the same time, in public, if you ever dress like that, you're pretty much asking for it.

There is kind of this imbalance where it's like, "Am I supposed to be beautiful? Am I supposed to make myself ugly?" And you never know what to do.

And so I think for my body image, that very much was . . . For me, it was more detrimental when I got into high school, when I formulated this idea of what my religion means to me, and then I just kept having pressures from outside telling me that that's not the way religion is.

And it got to the point where it's like, "Wow, even if I'm wearing my white coat and have a stethoscope around my neck, going to clinic, doing all the things that I want to do as a physician, I thought people would stop identifying me as a female and now start identifying me as, 'Look, this is a person who's trying to bring change.'" And it still didn't work. That's kind of where I lost a little bit of motivation, and it kind of haunted me through the courses a little bit.

I kind of tried to put it out of my mind, but now every time we take a picture or selfie or something . . . I know I'm the worst at this. You guys know that. When we want to post something on Instagram, I'm always, like, "Oh, I hate the way I look. I don't know if I look this way." So it has definitely . . .

Harjit: Impacted you.

Leen: . . . impacted my body image 100%. Yeah.

Harjit: What about you, Margaux?

Margaux: Yeah. So I have a little bit of a different background than you, Leen, but I also have felt conflicted. But to your original question, Harjit, of how old was I when I first started noticing, I don't know an exact age, but I think I was in middle school when I first asked my mom for makeup for Christmas.

And somehow, I had gotten the idea that if I could just get mascara, then I would look pretty. And then when I put on the mascara, I didn't feel pretty. So then it was like, "Oh, maybe if I put on eyeshadow, then I'll look pretty." To me, it felt like a never-ending chase of, "Oh, I just have to do this to look pretty. I just have to do this," and I never felt satisfied or happy with my image.

And this was pre social media era, so I don't know if it was from TV or where I was getting these ideas, because my mom didn't wear makeup growing up, and she was a very humble, but beautiful woman and never emphasized wearing beautiful things to look and feel beautiful. She just was beautiful and encouraged that for us. So I don't know where I had got these ideas in middle school, maybe from my peers. So even pre social media, that was happening.

And then I think when I was in college was the start of social media era, especially Facebook. I never posted pictures because I never felt happy with myself, and it was very conflicting to see all these beautiful pictures of my friends.

I think after I graduated college and people started posting more selfies and it became easier to take pictures of yourself on your phone, I thought it was going to be a really great thing that we would start seeing images of normal women in their everyday lives. But then all the filters came and people started taking time to take 1,000 pictures and only pick the one good one where you look perfect according to whatever standard.

And so then it became almost on the opposite spectrum of that, where it could have been a very positive thing to combat, the Hollywood image that we are bombarded with, with pictures of everyday women, but I don't think that happened necessarily.

I still felt very insecure with my body, with the way I looked, because I just never felt stereotypically beautiful for American culture.

I think it wasn't until I started doing yoga consistently and becoming a yoga teacher that I kind of went inside and found an internal beauty and an internal flame and have been able now to say, "You know what? This is who I am, and I think I am beautiful, and I don't care what other people think or what I should or shouldn't look like."

And so that's been more helpful for me in kind of starting this journey on Instagram. I still am more of a private person and don't always post anyway. But when we started the "Bundle of Hers" journey, it was a little bit uncomfortable for me at first to . . . I had that initial tension of, "Oh, I don't want to put that picture," but then I just had this talk with myself, and I'm like, "You know what? That's who you are, and you can't change that. You should be happy with it."

But that's a struggle that I still have every day, and it's a constant journey that I'm taking to battle the pressures of social media and body image.

Harjit: Leen, you had a thought.

Leen: I was going to say, I think the worst thing, and it starts around that age of high school and when you're younger, is comparing yourself to your friends and comparing yourself to images. And I think that's where it becomes even worse and worse. I know middle school, it's like, "Oh, you're comparing yourself to the popular person who has all these guys after her. That's something I have to achieve."

Margaux: Right. But where do they get that idea, right?

Leen: Exactly. And so it makes you wonder, how did this even start? Why is this cycle even a thing in school and education? Why is this a thing?

Harjit: Yeah. What about you, Bushra?

Bushra: Aware of self-image kind of thing.

Harjit: Yeah.

Bushra: I think I would say I was pretty young. I feel like I'm a very introspective person from a really young age, and so I'm an information gatherer, I like to say.

Harjit: I like that.

Margaux: Introvert.

Bushra: Right. I mean, you notice things, right? You notice women beautifying themselves. You notice the way that people act. You notice all these things, right?

I come from, I think, a culture that's very prideful in the way that you look, the way that you show yourself to the outside world. I think it's around probably sophomore, junior year, maybe even senior year, I started to care more about the way I looked, because that's when social media all started for me. When I first got Facebook, I saw people posting all this stuff, and of course, I want to fit in. I didn't know what the heck I was doing with makeup and stuff.

And then I started college, and with college, I think that's where my mentality kind of shifted more to, "I should really care about the way I look," because when I went to campus, there were all these beautiful girls who wear nice clothes and they're into the latest fashion. And so I felt like I needed to keep up a little bit, and I was constantly comparing myself to other women.

I think that's where most of my insecurities stem from. A lot of girls were hella skinny and super fit, and I was none of those things. And so I was like, "Oh, God." And so, in college, I started to put more of an effort into the way I looked. I lost a ton of weight in college. You usually gain . . . what do they say? The freshman 15? I lost like 40 pounds because I wanted to fit in. And it wasn't necessarily in the healthiest way. I was cutting calories a lot.

And then towards the end of college, that's when I started to kind of . . . Like I said, I'm an introspective person. I kind of took a step back and just kind of dealt with some of the issues that I had and just realized, "Hey, why am I doing this? Why am I trying to fit in?"

It doesn't necessarily mean . . . I think today you guys will see that I love wearing makeup. And for me, it's more of I love the process of putting it on. It just kind of takes your mind away from all the BS of school and all the things that are in your mind, all the things that you have to do. You're focused on this one thing. And that's the part of my daily routine that I absolutely love because I'm just kind of in my own element. I listen to music blaring loud, and you guys know the kind of music I listen to.

Harjit: Yeah, I love it.

Bushra: And so it just kind of takes me away from all of it. It's not necessarily I have to look good for something. It's more for myself.

Margaux: It's for you.

Bushra: Yeah. And I also have days where I'm not really feeling it. I'm going to roll with my sweats and my baggy shirt and a beanie. Actually, last week I posted an Instagram Story where I was basically two different people. One side of me where I'm completely low-key. I am wearing flats. I have sweats on. I have my beanie on. My hair looks crazy. And then the next side of me is . . . I was all dolled up. Those are two parts of me that I don't necessarily think are in opposition with each other. At any given moment, I could feel one way or the other.

Margaux: It's how you choose to express yourself for you.

Bushra: Exactly. Yeah.

Harjit: That's beautiful.

Margaux: Bushra, I think it's really empowering that you found how to express yourself, and we're both combatting the social norms now. But, Harjit, what about your story? When did you first start noticing or becoming self-aware in terms of a social perspective?

Harjit: So I think I started noticing things at a very young age. Like I have said in past podcasts, in my culture, it was very much . . . I learned that I was a girl first, and then second, I learned that I was a sexual being, which is kind of interesting to think that I was in elementary, right? I think I was 6 or 7, and I knew that one day I would get married, right? One day, I would have to bear kids. So this whole image thing actually was a huge part of my life.

In my family, we had arranged marriages. I would always hear my mom talk to my older sisters. She wouldn't directly say anything to me because I was still young, but I would hear her say, "You're looking a little bit fat. Make sure you start losing weight." We're in junior high and elementary.

And again, I want to give a disclaimer that this is my story. It doesn't represent my whole community.

So I think the impacts that left on me were really huge. I would dress very conservatively, or whatever conservative is considered, right? I'd wear no dresses, no makeup. I didn't wear makeup until I think I was in my third year of college. And so I'd wear no makeup. I made sure I did my hair in braids. I wore no dresses.

It was hard for me because when I was in junior high, I started realizing myself that I was attracted to people, and I would be like, "Oh, I want to dress up. All the girls look so cute. I want to wear dresses like them." I just bottled all that emotion within me, right?

And so I would be really particular about the way I did my hair. I knew I couldn't do makeup. So I wanted my hair super straight. I didn't want flyaway hairs because I was like, "Oh, that's going to look messy."

And then when I was in college, I was like, "Why do I care so much about how I look?" I think the thing was, it's all these messages that's been throwing around in culture, in American society.

I remember when I was in junior high, my friends would be like, "Oh, the new Miss World is Indian. Indian people are so beautiful." But I didn't identify with that. I always thought I was fat, even though I wasn't, and I think that word always stuck with me. I would even talk about it. And sometimes I had friends that were a little bit bigger than me, and now that I think of it, I think I hurt their feelings, too, because I would always talk about my weight.

I think when I started college, I was like, "You know what? I need to figure out how I can start loving myself." The thing is, not loving the way I look really took a toll on me.

I remember when . . . I think this was actually very recent. Again, two, three years ago, I had this big, I would say, meltdown or whatever. I was really depressed, and I thought about a lot of things. That's when I realized, "I need to be more confident with who I am, who I am as a person." So this is what I did. Tips for people who are struggling with that.

What I did is I started noticing things I like about myself. Slowly I would do this, and then every day I discovered there were other things I liked about myself. It took me a lot of years to get rid of that whole perception that I need to look good for a man. So now, too, when I do makeup, I do it because it makes me feel good, right? I don't do it for anybody else. And again, it's a calming routine.

And I think that getting that awareness of there's beauty in me, in the way I look, really helped my mental health.

I also do want to add I believe in the Sikh faith, and that really helped me come back into myself as well, because I learned a saying in our book that you are born perfect the way you are, so there's nothing you have to change about yourself. And I think that really kind of grounded me, too, when I really understand what my faith believes in or what I believe in, and it adds to my faith.

I think the thing is that body image is something we don't often talk about. I've even had conversations with some of my friends who I think are beautiful, and they tell me that they also struggle with thinking they're beautiful.

So it's this whole thing that . . . everyone has that struggle, and I think talking about it . . . I love that we're talking about it because it's so amazing to see y'all's journey through coming into yourself. I think it's an ongoing journey. I wouldn't say I'm perfect.

Bushra: I agree.

Harjit: Some days I'm just like, "Oh, my god, I look so bad," or I'm just like, "Oh, I'm still not the way I want to be." And sadly, still, in my community and my culture, even in my family, some people will tell me, "You're not looking the ideal way that you look." But I think that the thing is now I feel like I have that awareness. At least I'm working on it, and that makes me happy.

So now when we post on the "Bundle of Hers," yes, I still do think about what I'm posting, but I think it's a much faster process than it was in the past.

And I also want to add sometimes you do . . . like I said, I like dressing up, and in some scenarios, I do want to present myself in a certain way. So I don't think there's any harm in doing things, but it's doing what you want to do that's important, right?

And so, yeah, that's what I was going to add. Did you have a thought, Margaux?

Margaux: Yeah. I was going to say . . . I think you mentioned self-affirmation or telling yourself positive attributes that you like about yourself or just even positive things, like "You can do this" or "You're a good person," or something. It's so powerful, and it's something so simple that everyone can do on their own, and that is really a key part to success.

Leen: Margaux makes me do it every day.

Margaux: But I think as we move into third year and into our careers as physicians, there are going to be a lot more pressures on us, especially as women, in the way that we should look and act in the wards and in our careers.

And so I think the fact that we're talking about it now and trying to combat it and become strong, confident, self-loving people will make us better doctors because we have compassion for ourselves, and then we can have compassion for our patients.

Harjit: A person doesn't have to look a certain way to fill a certain role, right?

Bushra: Yeah. I always think about that, too, right? So next year, we're going to be on the wards, on rotations in different clinics, whatever situations. And so I always wonder, there's the way that you present yourself, meaning the outward appearance, and then there's the way that you carry yourself, meaning how you do your work, how you take care of patients, how you present, how you come up with plans, whatever, all the things that entail in third year.

So I always think about which one's going to make more of an impact? And I always want to say the latter will, right? But I also have this fear that your first impression that you make is not based off of what you know in your head. It's based off of the way that you look. And so in my head, "I better look good to make a good first impression."

Harjit: Those are the pressures that . . . That's what I'm saying. I feel like these are things that I'm going to still carry with me.

Margaux: Right. I even just had that thought a couple of weeks ago of, "I should probably learn how to do my hair for next year so it looks nice when I'm on clinicals." But then I thought, "Why? I like my hair the way it is." Just because it's not the standard norm of beauty or it's not straightened or whatever doesn't mean that I should be judged for that.

But yeah, I think you're right, Harjit and Bushra. We still struggle with that, and it will always be a journey.

Harjit: To end it out, I wanted to just ask one more question. If you were to describe the way you feel about yourself and the way you look today in one word, what would you use?

Bushra: I would say interesting.

Margaux: Sparkly.

Leen: I'd say progressive, in the sense I'm constantly changing and I'm building on to it.

Bushra: Yes. I like that one.

Harjit: I like that word.

Margaux: What about you, Harjit?

Harjit: Fulfilled.

Thank you so much for joining us in this conversation. Please leave your thoughts on our podcast or Instagram or even Facebook page. And I hope you all know you're so beautiful.

Bushra:"You are so beautiful."

Margaux: I need to cough.

Harjit: Chloe's going to have fun cutting this out.

Leen: Sorry.