S1E24: The Good Doctor

Bushra: Hello? Can you hear me?

Margaux: Scot didn't want to listen today?

Leen: My mic is off.

Bushra: Because I can't hear myself in my ear.

Margaux: All right. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the "Bundle of Hers." Margaux here, and I'm in the studio with Bushra and Leen. We started watching this show called "The Good Doctor," and so we kind of wanted to review it today. Previously, in Episode 12, we talked about "Grey's Anatomy" and how medicine is portrayed on TV. So we kind of wanted to look at "The Good Doctor" because it has some different highlights than "Grey's Anatomy."

So, Bushra, what do you think about "The Good Doctor"?

Bushra: I'm kind of hooked on it, to be honest. I think it's for a couple of different reasons. I feel like the premise of the show is completely different, right? So the main character is Shaun Murphy, and Shaun Murphy has autism disorder, and he also has savant syndrome.

And I remember seeing the first episode where they were debating . . . So Shaun wants to do a surgical program, basically, and they were debating whether to let him into the program because of his autism and savant syndrome. And so that kind of dialogue, that back-and-forth dialogue, was like, "Oh my gosh, this is such an interesting conversation to have."

Margaux: I think that that scene was really interesting too because, in my mind, the way that residencies usually work are through a match program. So it's not like a job where you go and interview and then get hired. You have to rank one, two, three, four, and the schools rank you, and then you get . . . through some magical algorithm, you get placed in a program. So it was interesting to me that they were kind of talking about it as if he'd been offered for a job.

So that's one thing that may not be realistic, but that aside, I think it was very interesting that they were even debating that he should be let in or not once he had clearly already completed the competencies of medical school.

Bushra: Yeah. He, as a doctor, I think they were confident in his clinical knowledge and his skill set. The biggest argumentative point that they had was this person needs to be able to communicate with other people in kind of a succinct and a meaningful way and be aware of situations and people's emotions. And they weren't sure if he would be able to do that because of his autism.

I just kind of put myself in that position. If I were a person that was born with autism and I wanted to do whatever career, really, particularly medicine, if I was denied because of something that I couldn't control, how would I feel about that? You know what I mean? And to not have that chance, that's kind of heartbreaking.

Margaux: Yeah. Leen, what about you? I know you just started watching.

Leen: Compared to all the other medical shows out there where they show the very A student gunner who's on top of the residencies, and they're going in to see patients, and they're stressing each other out, saying, "You have to do this right, or you're going to be kicked out," all that business, I think "The Good Doctor" puts into perspective that you could be different and still be in that very stereotypically competitive gunner kind of field, right?

I think one scene I really loved in "The Good Doctor" was when they had a mass casualty come into the ER, and one of the residents was really terrified. She doesn't know how to start. And you saw Murphy, he was standing there as well, and they assumed he was also being terrified as well. But he was actually contemplating. In his head, he was going over, "How am I going to do this, this, and this?"

And when one of the doctors pushed to . . . he grabbed his arm and was like, "Come on, do something," and he wouldn't do anything because he was still thinking. That was translated into, "Oh my gosh, your disability is showing."

Bushra: In a high-stress situation.

Leen: I think it really portrayed how society might stereotype that people with certain disabilities might act, and they don't realize that every person thinks differently, every person approaches something differently, and that's okay.

Margaux: So, Leen, on that note, I think it's an interesting narrative of our society, and maybe millennial generation or what have you, that we kind of rush through everything and expect immediate decisions and choices and options. But sometimes there's something to be said for taking a moment to think something through, even in an emergency.

I'm not saying to take an hour to decide if you need to get this patient a CT. But just maybe take one second, clear your head, so you can make a clear choice instead of trying to rush all the time. So I think it's in an interesting narrative maybe about society as well.

Bushra: One thing that I found interesting is we all agree that Shaun is very analytical in the way he thinks, right? And I think the thing that I kind of saw . . .

Leen: And literal.

Bushra: Yes, exactly. Which is a characteristic of autism. And so, because of that, he approaches things very systematically, whether it's an interaction between two human beings or if it's a cardiac case that he's working on. Whatever it may be, he's very systematic. He's very literal. He's very linear thinking, right?

I don't remember what episode it was, but he was basically just trying to figure out human interaction and what is perceived as normal, and XYZ, how we interact with each other. And I think it was actually the first . . .

Leen: The flirting criteria.

Bushra: The flirting criteria. How do I know if someone likes me? And then in the very beginning where he meets his co-resident, initially she was super rude to him. And then something happens, and then she's nice to him again because she wants some information from him. And then he goes, "Okay, so which person . . . at what point were you faking it?" Which is like, "Oh my gosh, this is such . . . how insightful he is."

"At what point were you faking it with me?" And then she was confused by the question. But it's true because we alter the way that we interact with someone based on what our goal is in that moment. He was able to grasp that, right? And she was like, "Uh." She was stuck.

So I really enjoyed that aspect of "The Good Doctor," of how analytic he is in all aspects of the show.

Leen: There was one scene that was really interesting. It was when a patient came in and they didn't know what was going on with this patient. And this patient had autism, so it was really hard to communicate with the patient as well. And Murphy figured it out.

The parents came up to Murphy, and they said, "We're so grateful that you finally figured out what's wrong with our son, but we do not want you to be on the surgical team," because they have this image of what autism is. And their image of autism was you can't be functional in such a high-stress setting.

I think this really showed a great character development for Dr. Melendez when he walked and he said, "You either take my surgical team as it is or you find a different surgical team. And either way, we're going to help you find that option."

I guess, as the episode progressed, they came back to the idea that was, "Murphy is a great role model for our son, who we've been possibly holding back with all these stereotypes of behaviors and things like that." I loved that episode. I thought that was great.

Margaux: I think, too, Leen, that brings up an important point that this show only shows one person with autism and to remember that autism is a spectrum disorder. I think you could argue that every person with autism has a unique case, and not one is necessarily the same as the other.

And so I don't know anyone with autism in my life, so I was curious to see what the general consensus was about this show from the perspective of people with autism.

So in class, we were told that autismspeaks.org is a really great website to reference and learn about autism as a disorder. There was a blog post from someone who has autism and speaks on autism, and their perception of it was that "The Good Doctor" actually does a good job of kind of walking this razor's edge, so to speak, of what autism is and is not, and demonstrating the multiple facets of autism. So I think that was very interesting. I don't know if that's what I was expecting to hear.

And again, this is just one person's perspective about "The Good Doctor," so I don't know if it's representative of everyone's feelings. But what do you guys think about that, using one character to represent an entire disease or disorder?

Leen: Think about it. In the history of television, let alone medical, the stereotype of medicine where you have to be absolutely perfect and genius and all these things, finally there's a character in the main role that has autism as a medical student, as a medical resident now. And it's a big hit of a show. That says something, right? That says that in the back of our minds, as society, we're always wishing for something amazing like this to happen, and then it just becomes a big hit.

Bushra: Leen, I completely agree because I feel like, as the public, we have this kind of broad, surface-level understanding of autism, right? But to not see it on TV and just basically in the mainstream media is interesting. But now that this show is out and it's actually a huge hit, I feel like that's going to speak to a lot of other television shows kind of tackling other issues.

For example, tackling social issues on television shows is super important because, basically, you see people that look like you on TV. There are other people in the world that exist that look like you, act like you, have the same things going on like you, right?

Leen: On such a cultural symbol as the TV, right?

Bushra: Yeah. And it also kind of just gives everybody a glimpse into . . . And maybe it's not an accurate depiction. Who knows? I can't speak to that. But for the most part, the exposure is what's key, right?

On "Grey's Anatomy," spoiler alert, two weeks ago, there was an episode where one of the interns, one of the new interns, turns out to be a transgender male. That's huge to be on TV and be open with your identity. That's huge. It could happen on so many different levels. The reason why it's important is to show the world there are different types of people out there.

Margaux: I totally agree, Bushra. But one thing when I first started watching "Good Doctor" that I was a little skeptical of or maybe hesitant and I'd like to talk through with you guys is that they were using Shaun Murphy's character as a person with autism to use kind of a tangible model of compassion and its role in medicine and kind of critiquing that historically, doctors, while it should have been their job, are not always compassionate.

And I think House is a good example of a doctor who had no bedside manner or compassion, but was a very successful doctor.

And so part of me was wondering did they use the autism to kind of make it stand out and make it a very overt point that compassion and humanism and these human interactions are a necessary part of medicine? And what does that mean for a person with autism?

Bushra: That's a very good question. I think the way that I kind of rationalize it is the show is called "The Good Doctor," right? "The Good Doctor," what does that mean? Is it someone that's good at medicine? Is it someone that's good at reading people's signals and being able to communicate properly? The title challenges what is meant by "good doctor."

If I don't show that I have compassion, does that mean I lack it? If I don't have the ability to show that, does that mean that I lack it? I think it's just kind of questioning all these things that are put out there.

And like you said, Margaux, back in the day, residency programs I don't think really cared about your bedside manner or what you brought to the profession as a human being. They cared about board scores. They cared about how many articles you've published, XYZ, what you have to your name. But it's different now, because they look at you as a whole person.

And I think for Shaun, we need to start looking at him as a whole person, regardless of what disorders he has, what he's dealing with. I don't know if that answers your question.

Margaux: No, it does. It's good insight. Leen, do you have anything to add?

Leen: So I don't know if you guys agree with this, but I think one of my favorite characters in the show is Shaun's neighbor. I don't know. I absolutely love how she saw this person with maybe a quirky personality in a sense that maybe people in society would refer to as weird, and she more or less embraced it and she went along with it, right? I absolutely love the way she interacts with him.

Margaux: I think it's a great relationship, too, Leen. It kind of reminds me of Penny and . . . who was the guy on "Big Bang Theory"?

Leen: Yes, Sheldon.

Margaux: He's a nerd, and she still likes him.

Bushra: Do you think Sheldon has autism spectrum disorder?

Leen: Do you think?

Bushra: A hundred percent.

Leen: Savant syndrome, too?

Margaux: I'm not qualified to make these diagnoses.

Bushra: Yeah, I'm also not.

Leen: DSM-5 it later.

Bushra: In my very limited . . .

Margaux: So I think it's kind of a cool demonstration of a relationship that you're seeing the person for who they are and you're really valuing their personality over the physical characteristics that media usually tells us to idolize.

Bushra: Yeah. And also, I just kind of want to point out that he's also drawn to her, too, which is crazy because he generally doesn't get attached to people very often. I think . . .

Leen: Well, it's one of the criteria, right?

Bushra: . . . you have flashbacks of his little brother, whatever. And he had a bunny, which is cute. People, in general, he doesn't really get attached to, but he got really attached to her. And I think part of it is, yeah, she knows that he has autism spectrum disorder, but she doesn't care.

Leen: But she didn't get frustrated or anything. She just kept . . .

Bushra: She's like, "And what?"

Leen: She's there, yeah.

Margaux: I think, too, one of my favorite moments between them was when he had a bad day, I think, and he came, and he actually went to . . . he debated. He was standing outside her door, and you could see this kind of conflict of, "Can I let her in? What do I do with these emotions?"

She ended up hugging him, which I think, for many people with autism, is not something you necessarily like. But he was kind of accepting, and a huge change in him and, I think, kind of the growing of their relationship. And I thought that was a really tender moment.

Bushra: And I think even more than that, she kind of challenges him in a good way. I think a lot of people are . . . I think most of his interactions are just like, "Get over it. It's not a big deal." I think a lot of the things she does are calculated. She's a very smart girl. So she, I think, does a risk . . .

Leen: Woman.

Bushra: Woman. She's a very smart woman, and I feel like she does a risk-benefit analysis before she pushes the envelope. And I think she's very pointed in what she does, and I think he responds well to that. I mean, it won't work for everybody, but I think their interaction is very great to watch on TV.

Margaux: Yeah. I think it's honest, too, and that's what really is great for both of them, is their honesty to be who they are with each other and accepting of that.

Leen: I think it's just so refreshing to finally see a person with a disability, which that group of people is usually marginalized, in such a powerful position and succeeding in that position and then showing that they can very well integrate into society and make society so much . . . make it better and even contribute, and it's great. I think it's so refreshing to finally have a show like that. And it's a big hit, right?

Bushra: Keep them coming.

Leen: So supporting people, where are you at?

Margaux: The only thing is I would hope to see maybe more women doctors in the show as it progresses.

Leen: Sure, yeah.

Margaux: But I think it's a great show, and I'm excited to finish watching it without spoilers, Bushra.

Leen: Yeah, spoiler alert.

Bushra: I just won't say anything, I guess.

Leen: Spoilers.

Margaux: Anyway, you've been listening to the "Bundle of Hers," and we hope you tune in next time. Be sure to check us out on Instagram or Facebook, @bundleofhers. And we'll catch you next time.

Leen: You like that?

Bushra: Like that.