S1E25: Definition of a Leader

Harjit: You good? Okay. Perfect.

Bushra: Wait, hold on. I'm not ready.

Chloe: It's always Bushra.

Margaux: Always taking forever.

Bushra: Wait, hold on. Okay.

Leen: Your thing is weird. You need to tighten it.

Bushra: No.

Leen: Okay.

Harjit: Ready? Go.

Bushra: Yeah, I'm ready.

Harjit: Hi. Welcome to the "Bundle of Hers." This is Harjit. And today in the studio, we have everyone. Today I thought it would be really good that we talk a little bit about leadership.

I think one concept that I always knew that I had to be a part of, which was required for me to get into med school, was leadership. But I really remember, when I was in college, I wanted to think, "They're requiring this, but what does leadership mean to me? How does it impact my life? How do I see myself being a leader?" And I think I discovered along the path that the definition is very flexible.

But I thought it would be fun if I looked up online and see what the dictionary . . . On Oxford dictionaries, it says, "Leader, the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country." And so that's kind of the definition. What do you all think about that?

Margaux: I think it's very interesting that they call it a singular person is a leader of something. I think leadership can be all-encompassing. You can have multiple people in leadership, and generally as a team that leads together, I think, is usually more functional. That's the way I kind of think of leadership anyway.

But you're right, when I was applying to medical school and there was this leadership checkbox, I think the very stereotypical leadership is president of your school club, interest group, or whatever. Sometimes that can be leadership. But I never really found that fulfilling as a leadership role.

So I don't know what your guys' experiences or thoughts about leadership are.

Leen: I know when I walked into my pre-med advisor's office one day and she said, "You have no leadership." And I said, "Well, what's leadership?" And she says, "Well, all the students, they do clubs and presidents of clubs and things like that." Then she points to a paper on the wall that just had the word "legacy," and she was like, "That's what you're trying to achieve. Don't just go be the president of some club." And so I ended up doing it through the club to kind of build a legacy.

But I guess for me, what I ended up doing was . . . I was the president or the starter of the Muslim Student Association down at Southern Utah University. But I didn't create it for Muslims because there were none. It was just me. And so I created it more as a . . . there are so many stereotypes and negativity around this faith, especially in Southern Utah where these people don't have the opportunity of meeting such diverse populations. So I did it as a communication thing where we just have interfaiths and we would talk about it.

I mean, I think you can do it through clubs, but you really have to make it yours, right? Not just the pogo . . . What is it? Tennis club?

Harjit: Yeah.

Leen: Ping-pong table club.

Bushra: I think you touched on a really good idea and sentiment when it comes to leadership. I think, stereotypically, what you think of is someone who has great organizational skills who can just basically make sure everything goes through the way it should, right? But I think more than that, when schools say they're looking for leadership, in my head I think they're thinking about, "Can this person bring the best out of the people within whatever group that they're leading? Can they figure out what the bigger purpose is?" Find a way to manifest that.

That's what I don't get about just saying, "I was the leader of the chess team," or, "I was the basketball captain," or something. I think being captain is one thing, but being able to inspire a team is a different thing. And I think that's what the leadership part entails, right?

Margaux: I think that's so important, Bushra, that we recognize that leadership . . . You don't have to have the title of leadership . . .

Harjit: Yeah. I agree with that.

Margaux: . . . to be a good leader or to be a leader in general. It's, "Can you inspire people?" Like you just said.

Harjit: I kind of want to go off of this. I noticed that everyone kind of has a different view of what they think leadership is. But there are these common goals that we all kind of think about, which is it's more than just the title. Kind of going off that, if you were to give a definition of leadership to someone, how would you define that?

Margaux: So I actually have this great picture in my . . . It was a meme or something I saw on the internet, but there was one picture . . . You know those Viking-type ships where there are a bunch of people rowing? It said, "Leader," and then it was a boss, right? And the picture was a person standing at the back of the ship cracking a whip behind all the people who were rowing. And then the next picture said, "Leader," and it showed the "leader" in the front rowing with everybody.

So I think of leadership as someone who doesn't just boss people around, but rather inspires and works together to solve a common problem for everybody.

Harjit: Yeah, I like that. Bushra, what about you?

Bushra: I think the way that I think about it with anything is that it's very goal-oriented. And because it's very goal-oriented, there are different ways to approach that goal.

And like I said before, I think it's a matter of, "I have a goal and I have a team. How can I utilize the strengths of every person to reach that goal?" I think the process of figuring out people's strengths and being able to utilize their strengths to make the team better . . .

I always loved the saying that you're as strong as your weakest component and making everyone strong is better for the purposes of accomplishing the goal. And so that's the way I kind of think about it.

Harjit: We talk about that whole team component and it's very . . . it's kind of like a combination effort, but you're kind of helping people get to that point.

Bushra: Exactly.

Harjit: Leen, what about you?

Leen: I think a leader is a person who can establish a stability and then move that stability to create innovation.

Harjit: I like that.

Leen: I think a leader pushes people forward towards better things all the while keeping everybody . . . Not sane. It's not the word I'm looking for.

Margaux: Unison.

Leen: What?

Margaux: In unison.

Leen: In unison. Exactly. And that's not saying eliminating uniqueness or anything, but that's saying, "Can we progress together and better ourselves?" Whether that's on a society, on a teamwork, or just establish goals, and even do better than those goals.

Harjit: Yeah. And I think for me, how I define leadership is . . . It's interesting because I think the word leadership is almost like the word identity where it's different for everybody and you kind of have this . . . everyone finds their own way to lead something.

But I think the common thread I see in leadership is progress, is moving forward, is growth, making some change. Either you can be a leader in your own life and it could be an individual thing, but it also could be a community thing, like I think Bushra mentioned.

For me, having leadership is important, but what really roots leadership is finding your own calling and your own passion. I think those are the areas that you can really lead strongly in.

So I guess my next question for all three of you is do you guys consider yourself leaders, first? And second, is there a type of leader you feel you are?

For example, I can start first. I consider myself a leader, and I hope to be a leader in the aspect of social justice. That's kind of what I'm passionate about in my leadership. And so what about you three?

Margaux: I think, Harjit, feeding off what you just said, we're all leaders through this podcast. I think we recognize that something wasn't being met in our class culture. And so we did something about it by having these conversations in a very public platform. So I think that we're all leaders in that sense.

I also feel like I'm a leader in a sense. Like Leen said, innovative as part of being leadership. I feel like I'm very . . . I see problems with our current healthcare system and I try to think of ways that we could change it as a rising generation of physicians, or maybe even to aspire to be in a leadership position when I am a physician.

Bushra: I think everyone in their own right has opportunities to be a leader. And I do think that each one of us has that component within us. For me, lately, the last couple of years, what I've been thinking more and more about is not necessarily being at the forefront of everything, but kind of taking a step back.

I don't know. I'm a very observational person and I like to see growth in other people as well. Especially in my community, I like to see people grow and pursue the things that they want to do.

And so if I can take a step back and let other people take that leadership role, we can go in a completely different direction that I haven't even thought of, right?

And so, for me, that's kind of been my goal the last couple of years, is just to be an observational piece and then trying to figure out a link kind of.

Harjit: I think, Bushra, you bring up such an important point because I think leadership often is like, "What do I see?" But a lot of the times, it's knowing what to do and what not to do, and the whole development that leadership is more than just me. If everyone's a leader, everyone progresses. And I really like that you bring that point up.

Leen, what about you?

Leen: For me, I think before medical school, I've had more of a drive to become a leader. And once I got to medical school, I don't know if part of it is just being behind a textbook constantly 24/7 diminished that kind of drive, but it's one thing that I absolutely miss every day before I came to med school.

I mean, I've always been that way. When I'm studying in school and things like that, I kind of get doled out, I guess. But then once you put me into a work environment or anything like that, I find this whole new energy.

And so I noticed in work environments, I would . . . I don't know what came over me, but I have the ambition to go up and beyond.

For instance, when I worked at a high school as an anatomy teacher/TA, I wanted constantly to build more opportunities for these high school students to learn and to actually get hands-on ideas. We had long talks about how you can apply what you're learning to real life.

And I think that's a huge part about being a leader, is when you finally get the information that you need or the skills and you get to finally apply them to real life. I think that's super stimulating. That just makes me very much excited, which is kind of my motivation to get through second year and get onto third year.

Bushra: Yeah.

Margaux: Yes. That's good.

Leen: We might not be full-on leaders, but we still have that drive that kind of has leadership qualities to it, right? And so I think right now I'm really doled out. I'm like, "I wish there was more opportunity for me to actually go and be more motivated and actually put effort towards what I'm doing in real-life settings."

Harjit: I think, Leen, that you bring up another great point that sometimes you feel like, "Oh, I'm being a leader." And there are times where you feel like, "Oh, at this point, I'm not." But I almost wonder, from the outside perspective when I see you, I feel like you are being a leader, because you're continuing this education and there are a lot of obstacles in your life.

I think this can happen for a lot of people, but you being here every day, I think that shows how dedicated you are for this and that you're doing this more than just for yourself, because you care about your communities.

Leen: That goes back to the definition of leadership and how it's different to all of us. I don't perceive leadership as a self thing. I perceive leadership as integrating into something better that we can move ourselves together to make ourselves something better.

Harjit: Yeah. So we all have different definitions.

I wonder what have you all been doing to continue doing leadership? Because that is something that we're encouraged to do and something that people do look for in residency applications. So I was wondering maybe we could go around and talk a little bit about things that we are currently doing to strive to continue to be leaders.

Bushra: So I guess, for me, I don't necessarily . . . Maybe I'm the minority. I don't really do things because I think it's going to look good on my residency application. For me, I want to enjoy the things that I'm doing and actually be passionate about so that if it does end up on my residency application, I could be passionate when I talk about it.

And among those things, first of all, this podcast. I just love the idea of having an outlet where I can voice my opinions and be here with you guys, and be able to reach a wide audience, right?

The second thing that's important to me is community outreach, particularly my own Somali community. And one of the things that I've been loving since I entered medical school is there are more people that are interested in medicine that I found out, more people that are reaching out to me saying, "I didn't know that this was possible and I want to do this. How did you get here?"

And then the last thing that I'll mention is being a part of our Diversity and Professionalism Committee, and being able to come up with a ground rule for constructing a dialogue between people who don't necessarily have the same ideas or ideologies, but being able to facilitate a conversation so that there can be a better understanding between people.

And so those are the things that I'm going to mention that I'm passionate about.

Harjit: I kind of see a leadership style, Bushra, that you have, which is basically, again, generating ideas and then being able to express those.

Bushra: Oh, thanks.

Harjit: That's kind of something I see, a theme.

Margaux: I think you bring up a very important point, Bushra, of doing things not for the application, but because you're passionate about them. And last year, at the end of first year, I found myself getting caught up in a frenzy trying to apply to all these leadership positions because I felt like I had to have leadership for the residency application. I didn't end up getting any of the things I applied for, and I was kind of upset about that.

And then I took a step back and I was like, "You know what? I was just doing those things to get the checkbox. They probably wouldn't have made me satisfied."

But the things that I have found myself through passion and through my own interest becoming a leader in is wellness, the Wellness Interest Club, where we plan lots of different activities for medical students so they can get a break from school and just focus more on our wellness.

And through that, I've also applied for a grant to build a wellness garden for students . . .

Harjit: Wow.

Margaux: . . . to go hang out in outside of our medical school building. I think that, for me, it wasn't traditionally a checkbox leadership thing, but the more I think about it . . . Like with you doing outreach to your community and just these things you're passionate about, leadership, showing the way. So those are the things. And then this podcast too.

Harjit: And I think, again, I want to say that really shines through as a common theme, that you're very much a holistic person.

Margaux: Thanks.

Harjit: I think that you care about every little piece that matters. And I think that you're good at seeing things with a bigger purpose. That's something that I always see in your leadership.

Margaux: Thank you.

Harjit: Leen?

Leen: So, for me, I think one of the things that I've really enjoyed doing while here in medical school was I was part of the Utah Rural Outreach Program, where I went down and I took organs from cows and sheep and things like that, and I took them to high schools.

I went back and visited my old work and my old students and they were super excited to have that opportunity for someone to come to them and talk to them. "How do you get into medicine?" And then here's a little fun side activity we get to do when we get to learn some anatomy.

I don't know. I find a lot of joy in that. I think being in a bigger city now, everybody kind of has experiences with different, diverse backgrounds, and it's more of a debate rather than a teaching opportunity.

And so when I go back down to Southern Utah, it's more of a teaching opportunity where people have no idea until they're like, "Tell us about this. Why do you do this?" or anything of the sort.

And so I find most of my leadership experiences are more outreach to rural areas to bring them more opportunities. I'm very passionate about that aspect of medicine even.

Harjit: Yeah. I think that's such important work. And again, like we've kind of been talking about in leadership, bringing it to more than just yourself. That's kind of the thing that we think is really important.

I think, for me, I'm actually a firm believer in if you verbalize your passions, things that you care about, opportunities come to you. So, like Bushra said, even when I applied to medical school, I've never done something to check it off my box. I remembered that if I didn't get into med school, I wanted to be happy with all the experiences that I had been through, and I wanted to grow in every experience. All because I'm a leader doesn't mean that I know everything. There's so much I have to learn.

So, in that sense, I tried to put out in the world things I care about, and that's how I got different types of opportunities, like this podcast. I'm also in the Diversity and Professionalism Committee with Bushra. I also am an ambassador at the University of Utah.

I think leadership, you don't need a title like, "I was president of this. I was secretary of this." But it's more you can create titles for things that you care about and something that you create change with.

Leadership, whenever I've led or been a leader, it's when something has changed. And that, to me, is really what leadership means. So I see it more as a broad thing. And it could be an individual thing or a community thing.

I think I kind of wanted to end off with this last question. We're going to be physicians hopefully soon. Knock on wood. Is there wood in this room? How do you think we can translate things that we've learned and the ways that we've grown as leaders and hope to grow as leaders when we are then physicians and in medicine? So how can we translate these leadership skills to the medical world?

Margaux: So I think the common theme of our conversation has been doing leadership through passion rather than checkboxes. And once we're practicing physicians, there are very few applications after that that you need the "leadership checkbox," right? So there's not a lot of necessarily drive for the leadership if you're not looking for it.

But I think it's important to always remember and hold in your heart what you are passionate about and to take the skills that we've learned in medical school, in being in these maybe nontraditional leadership positions, and carry those forth with us as physicians when we have more power, more privilege to make greater change than maybe we can right now.

And I think what we've learned and the skills that we're gaining right now are just invaluable to carrying on our messages as physicians.

Harjit: Yeah. That was such a great thought. I love how you summarized it.

Bushra: I don't really have much to add on to what Margaux already beautifully summed up. But I will say I feel like as leaders in our future profession, medicine, we have to leave room for growth because the field is consistently changing and will always change as long as we learn more information. And I feel like if we keep that in mind and leave that room for growth, then that can only help us.

Harjit: Yes. I like that.

Leen: I liked what Margaux said about the common theme is passion and leadership. Because if you're doing it to check off a box, when you get to med school, that leadership motivation is not going to drive you to get through the hardest times.

And I think, at least for me, that really drives me, is my ultimate passion of wanting to be a leader in my community, wanting to connect my Arab side with my American side. And if you don't have that passion, it's really difficult to push yourself through if you just did leadership for checkboxing.

Margaux: I think that's very important too, Leen, to have the passion to drive you through the roughest times of medical school to . . .

Leen: You need it. I think you need it.

Margaux: . . . wonder why we're studying for this awful test. There's a bigger reason.

Harjit: A hundred percent. I also agree, Margaux. I think Leen brought up a point that you need that passion to drive you through the hardest times of your life. And I think passion so tightly works with the word leadership.

I hope to continue being a leader throughout my life. And I feel like that's something that I was born to do, is to be a leader. It might not be the conventional way people see it, but it's something that I always want to be a part of, of innovation, of change, of education, and growth.

The truth is, with education, you get that privilege. So I hope to utilize that in a way where I'm not, again, overbearing, but helping other people move forward in their life.

And I think my strongest form of leadership is working with my communities. I think this is kind of a theme we've all touched on, and that's how I hope to translate as I become a physician. I think it's important to see that leadership can be so dynamic and fluid.

We actually want to hear what your definition of leadership is. Leave us a message on Facebook or Instagram. And also follow us @bundleofhers on, again, Facebook, Instagram. And you can find us on iTunes.

Margaux: Yay. You did it.

Harjit: Yay. You guys, we were so good today.