S1E27: Mothers in Medical School

Leen: Flirt with the mic.

Kyley: That sounds like a really great rap song . . .

Leen: Right? I know.

Kyley: . . . that you should write.

Leen: I flirt with the mic. Bushra, we should write this song.

Kyley: You and Bushra.

Leen: She's just like, "I don't know you."

Bushra: No.

Leen: Fine, I'll get Harjit to do it with me. Roast video.

Margaux: So are we all ready? Hey, everyone. Welcome to the "Bundle of Hers." Margaux and Leen here in studio with two special guests, two of our classmates, Kyley Cox and Jennifer Mabey. They are both mothers in medicine, and today we want to talk to them and explore a little bit about what it's like to be a mom in medicine. So, Kyley, do you want to go ahead and introduce your family?

Kyley: Sure. Thank you. So I have a 2.5-year-old named [Adalynn 00:00:41]. We call her Addie, and she was about 11 months old when I started med school, and she is the love of my life, the best thing in the world. I love being a mother.

Margaux: What about you, Jen?

Jennifer: I have two kids. My oldest is 3.5, and then my youngest is 1.5. My oldest, her name is Acadia, and she was about 2 when I started medical school. And then my youngest is Olympia, and she was 3 months old when I started med school.

Margaux: Those are great names for all of your kids.

Jennifer: Thanks.

Margaux: So I think what I wanted to know the most is the challenges and barriers you guys have faced to being a mom in medical school. I think it's something that as more and more women are medical students, there's naturally going to be more women who are thinking about becoming mothers or are already mothers in medical school. But it's something that I feel like is not openly talked about.

So how did you weigh being a mom into your decision to go to medical school? Because both of you already had kids before you started.

Kyley: Yeah. So I actually got pregnant intentionally, our pregnancy was planned, and I didn't think I was going to get accepted to med school just because I knew that it was so common to have to reapply. So in my brain I was thinking, "Well, I'll apply this year and then I'll get pregnant and I'll have my baby. And then she'll be 1 when I start school." I ended up getting accepted that year and then deferred a year.

So having her didn't change the trajectory for me for applying to med school in any way. I'm the type of person I want to have my cake and eat it too, no matter what it is. And so I just was like, "You know what? Let's just go for it. Let's have a kid."

My husband and I had been married for 8 years at the time, and the whole time we've been married, we wanted kids and wanted kids. And finally we just decided, "You know what? Let's just make it work, do both."

Margaux: What about you, Jen?

Jennifer: So, like Kyley, we also did our family planning so that I would have a baby before med school started. I was pregnant during my application, so I was pregnant going to interviews. Unfortunately, I don't show until I'm like in my third trimester, so it didn't really affect people's perceptions of me probably.

But I definitely asked for a lot of advice about that, because it was pretty uncharacteristic of women planning on going to med school, especially this young with children, I feel like, at least from my experience.

But then as I was getting ready to go to medical school, I felt like I got a lot of . . . not necessarily backlash, but just got a lot of negative feedback and negative perceptions from people saying that I couldn't do that, or that's something that I should push back, or, "You don't know what it's like to be a mother, so why would you want to go to med school? Another unknown. And why would you want to do those things at the same time?"

That really scared me and really worried me because this was part of my plan. I did plan on having her before med school for that reason. And it forced me to take a step back and really assess what my priorities were and what I really wanted to do. And then I was really scared too, because I was entering into two unknown things in my life.

And so ultimately, I got accepted, but I decided to actually withdraw my acceptance. Then I did two years of soul searching, figuring out what I really wanted to do. My priorities didn't change much after I had my daughter. For some people, they totally do, but mine didn't. It made me want to go to med school even more. So then here I was trying to make my application strong again and do those things again.

And then I decided to have another kid before med school again. So my daughters are two years apart. Then I got into med school and, like I said, she was 3 months old when I started, but it worked out great and I'm glad that it happened that way.

Margaux: When you said you were doing some soul searching, what kind of empowerment did you find to come back after having your first daughter and be like, "You know what? I can do this. I don't care what all these other voices are saying"?

Jennifer: Yeah, I actually did another graduate degree. So I already had had a graduate degree before, but I went back to school again to complete a different graduate degree to be a school psychologist actually, because I thought that was still a little bit more clinical. I could still help with pediatric population, which I was interested in.

But the first day I walked into that class, I knew it was wrong for me and it was just not the really hard basic science that I was so used to. So I went through the first semester just to give myself some wiggle room to say, "Is this really what I want? Am I just making a knee-jerk reaction and stuff?"

But after going through that first semester, it really solidified that no, it's medicine that I really wanted. And then at that point, I didn't care what people said anymore because I felt like I really came to my own on that.

Leen: So I know that on applications, when you reapply, they ask you, "Have you ever applied to our school before? And if you did, what were the reasons?" How did you manage to go through that, and what was the feedback that you got when you wrote about your experience?

Jennifer: I was pretty honest in my personal statement. I wrote about how I got accepted to med school, I didn't go, and I was pretty honest about the reasons of that in my personal statement. So I felt like come interviews, I had opened that door for them to ask me those questions.

My experience is a little different because when I first applied to med school, I actually applied to MD-PhD programs only, and those are reviewed by a different committee than MD-only applicants. And now I'm currently an MD-only student. In part of that soul-searching two years, I decided that getting that dual degree wasn't something that I truly wanted, as it turned out.

So I think in terms of people actually assessing that application, it wasn't that big of a deal because it was a different group of interviewers that talked to me.

But I did get a number of questions about, "Well, how are you sure this time?" and things like that. And I feel like I was able to answer because I was so confident and I feel like my confidence really showed, whereas maybe the first time around in the application process, I wasn't that confident because I had received so much negative feedback from other people.

Leen: What about you, Kyley? Did you have any feedback from that aspect?

Kyley: I had a lot of negative feedback in terms of just applying to med school, but none related to having my daughter. I feel like I had more people tell me, "Oh, you don't really want to go to med school. It's too long. It's too hard. Just go to PA school." I can't even count the number of times I heard that. And it was never related to having my daughter. It was always just related probably to the fact that I'm a woman maybe, or young. I don't know what it is. The current climate. But I feel like women in general are kind of discouraged from going to med school.

Margaux: Yeah, I get that a lot too, of, "Well, why not be something that's much shorter?"

So you guys both made it into medical school, which is great. And we've seen you guys both be very successful mothers and medical students. What challenges have you met or barriers have you met since starting medical school with regards to being a mother? Kyley, do you want to start?

Kyley: Sure. I think, for me, the biggest barrier is just managing everything. My husband and I have opposite schedules. He works nights half the week, so for half the week, I'm essentially a single mother. And for me, that can be really hard timing-wise, getting my daughter to daycare on time, getting here for tests on time. And then if there are things after my regular daycare time, I have to employ a second babysitter to go get my daughter from daycare.

So scheduling is difficult, but it's another one of those things where you make it work, you find a way.

And there are also times when there are things that I would like to participate in that I can't for whatever reason, either because I feel guilty for leaving my daughter for more time or I can't find a babysitter.

So I think that it does add an extra layer of things that I'm thinking about and dealing with on a daily basis, but yeah, you make it work.

Margaux: Yeah. And I think you do a great job of making it work.

Kyley: Thanks.

Margaux: What about you, Jen?

Jennifer: Yeah, a lot of similar things to Kyley. I think the first thing that came to my mind, though, was since I started med school with my daughter being 3 months old, finding a place to pump was the biggest struggle that I had. Just in the actual building where we have our classes, there's not a pumping room. And so then usually I have to walk to the library, which is still connected. The buildings are connected, but I still had to walk to the library to go pump. But then that was a pain because there were competing mothers that also needed to pump. So that was usually full.

Then I'd always pump in the weirdest places. So I had to pump in a shower, which was definitely less than sanitary. But I was hoping those immunoglobulins were kicking in there.

But there are just a lot of things that you have to consider and stuff. Finding a place to pump was a challenge, and then taking the time to pump was a challenge, and then trying not to spill the milk on me afterwards was a challenge.

Margaux: And storing, finding a place to store it.

Jennifer: Yeah, storing. I had to carry my giant pump bag around, and so I'm sure everyone in our class was like, "Why does Jen always have like a huge bag with her?" No, it's a thing. Anyway.

So I think that was . . . I mean, aside from the normal parenting, raising children, balancing time with you and medicine and your spouse or whatever is hard, but yeah, pumping was such a pain during my first year. I was so glad when my daughter turned 1, because I'm like, "I'm done. I'm sorry."

Kyley: That was something I thought about a lot too when I started. Addie was 11 months and I was still pumping at that time for her. I just decided, "You know what? I'm not pumping anymore. This is just going to be too difficult to manage that." I don't know how you did it. You're amazing.

Jennifer: But one time I did forget my pumping charger. It was right after anatomy lab. And then I saw Kyley and I knew that Kyley was still pumping a little bit. I was like, "Kyley, do you have your pump charger and stuff?" And she totally saved me. I think moms look out for each other.

Margaux: There's a community.

Jennifer: There's a community. We're not all best friends, but we look out for each other. We've got each other's back.

Margaux: Yeah. So Kyley, earlier you mentioned having guilt, and mother guilt, I guess, is kind of a thing that a lot of women in medicine verbalize. So do you guys kind of want to talk about that and the external factors that maybe kind of imply that guilt or how you combat that?

Kyley: I don't really know how I combat that. I am kind of an anxious person anyway and a worrier, and I have an incredible amount of mom guilt all the time. I try to just balance it and think about all the good things that I'm doing and how being a successful woman is actually being a role model for my daughter and how she looks up to me. And so I try to just balance everything the best I can.

I think mom guilt is kind of a pervasive thing that you're always going to have, no matter what you're doing as a mom, whether you're working or even if you're staying home. I know a lot of stay-at-home moms feel mom guilt too about what they should or shouldn't be doing.

So I think that no matter what you're doing, you'll have mom guilt. And the best thing to do, at least for me, is to try to focus on the positive things anyway. I'm doing a lot of great things even if I'm not perfect in everything.

Margaux: Yeah. How about you, Jen? Anything to add or say?

Jennifer: Yeah. I feel like during those two years of soul searching that I had . . . I went to school just part-time and then I worked part-time, but most of the time I was a stay-at-home mom with my child. And there was a lot of guilt for doing that, honestly, for being a stay-at-home mom. And not that you shouldn't be a stay-at-home mom, but I just knew that that was not what I should be doing.

And so I felt like I had more guilt that I wasn't doing the things that I needed to do in order to be happy and to therefore be a good mother. And so I feel like coming to school, I didn't have very much mom guilt because I knew that this is what I needed to do to become the best version of myself, essentially. And to be the best mother and to be the happiest and have the most sense of fulfillment or pride that I could then show to my daughters.

I mean, I think there are still obviously things that . . . I had to come home late one day because of some school event or some volunteering thing or whatever. But at the same time, I think having had that time to really stay at home with my kids, I think I can really see that this is where I'm supposed to be. And I'm so much happier here and I have so much more sense of fulfillment and I'm happier at home with my children because of it too.

Margaux: Yeah, I think it seems as a mom, you never feel quite right about the decisions you make. And I think maybe a lot of that has to do with not having a lot of outside societal support for mothers. It's kind of seen like this thing that women do. They get pregnant and then they raise the children.

But is there support, whether you're a stay-at-home mom or a doctor or whatever career choice you want be and be a mother? It seems like our society is still not quite there in supporting motherhood and all its challenges. It's just like you guys are constantly having to come up against this wall. And I think you are both so brave for being here and fighting that, breaking those barriers, and being role models for other women. Thank you guys.

Jennifer: Thanks.

Kyley: Thank you. I really love what Jen just said about how fulfilling your own dreams and wishes and how that reflects in the example that you're setting for your kids. I think it's really important. And I feel that too. I feel a lot of fulfillment being here. This is really what I want to do. And I think that it does show to our kids that we're following our dreams and making it happen and taking all the other challenges that come with it and just making it all work.

Margaux: Yeah, that's so inspiring.

Leen:What challenges do you anticipate during third year that you're going to face with being a mom in medical school?

Jennifer: So many challenges. That's what I anticipate. Yeah, I'm a little nervous about that, honestly. I'm nervous for childcare things because my own children's daycare ends at 4:15, which is pretty early. They go to daycare at a public school, and fortunately my mother-in-law picks them up and bridges that gap until my husband and I get home. But I'm worried about those long nights that I might have that I won't be able to see my kids before they go to sleep and things like that.

And I'm worried about just the drain of caring for my kids being put on somebody else. I worry about that, but I definitely planned my third-year schedule around my children essentially.

Because my kids go to daycare at a public school system, they have summers off, which was nice for the last year between the first and second year of med school because we also got the summer off. So I was able to spend a lot of that time with my kids, but I tried to schedule my easier rotations during the summertime and then tried to do my heavier rotations during the school year.

And then I also made sure that my schedule matched up so that I would not have any rotation over that winter break time so that I would not have to be stressed about studying over winter break. I just knew I wasn't going to do that.

Margaux: With your family.

Jennifer: Yeah. And I think ordinarily I probably would've put maybe a heavier rotation during that time so I could have studied within that break. But I just feel like with kids, you kind of have to strategize how you're going spend your time and where you're going get your vacation, if at all. But things like that.

Kyley: Yeah, I'm pretty worried about third year. I've been researching nannies and daycares. Where my daughter is now I really love, but the hours aren't going to work for third year. So we're going to be doing something else.

And it's really challenging, I think, to find someone that you trust enough to essentially raise your kid when you're in med school, particularly third year when you're gone for 30 hours or whatever.

So I'm pretty worried about it, and I haven't figured out a solution yet. Right now, we're thinking about maybe putting Addie in some sort of preschool during the day and then maybe hiring someone to be with her before and after until we can get home.

Cost is a factor too. Childcare is really expensive. My daughter is in a really affordable daycare right now and it's still expensive. So the thought of hiring a nanny is just super terrifying. I hate the thought of getting more debt, but you can add your cost of daycare to your cost of attendance and get loaned more money to cover that if you need to.

So I think we're going to do that and the combination of my husband's salary to try to figure out something that will work. But third year is probably the scariest thing in med school so far.

Margaux: Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine the challenges of trying to find a nanny or a daycare that can be with your kid at like 5:00 and 4:00 a.m. when you have to be at the hospital at 6:00 for pre-rounds and then stay until like 4:00 a.m. again. I just can't imagine that challenge.

Kyley: Jen and I both kind of live far away too. We both live in the suburbs of Salt Lake, so we also have to commute on top of that. I think that's another challenge, because if you have to be at the hospital at 5:00 but you live an hour away, that's an extra hour of childcare you need to find. So that's a thing to think about too.

Jennifer: And I think Kyley touches on an interesting point. I feel like a lot of the women in our . . . all of the women in our class with children have spouses that work, but there are a lot of men in our class whose spouses don't work. And I think a lot of women in the workforce typically have working spouses as well, whereas the opposite is sometimes true, absolutely, but oftentimes not. At least in our region, and definitely in our class.

And so I think, yes, we have husbands, but they also work and they also have their own responsibilities and their own wellness. And I think that adds a layer of complexity to how we plan our life.

Kyley: Yeah, exactly.

Margaux: Has being a parent influenced any specialties that you guys are considering, like maybe doing or not doing because of being a parent already?

Jennifer: Yeah, I never considered pediatrics before I had a child. So I was kind of afraid of kids. I was an only child. I didn't have nieces or nephews. My husband is the youngest, but he's the youngest by almost a decade. So he has a lot of nieces and nephews, but he just didn't really care to interact with them a ton. So we were both effectively only children and the first diaper we ever changed was our newborn's diaper.

And not that I never liked kids, I was just kind of afraid of them. But now that I've had kids, I love kids and I really want to work with kids, whether or not it's in pediatrics or something else. So I think that definitely influenced that. I think honestly OB-GYN kind of fell a little bit lower for me after having a kid.

Margaux: Fair.

Kyley: I knew I wanted to do peds, pediatrics, before med school, and then having a child really solidified that for me. I was also kind of afraid of kids before, but then you have one, they're so much fun and they're so sweet. And I really love the way that kids are so honest about things. You can tell when your kids don't feel well. I think of my daughter as a little droopy flower when she doesn't feel good. But then when she starts feeling better, she just perks right back up again.

And I just love the honesty and the . . .

Jennifer: The resiliency too.

Kyley: Yeah, the resiliency and just how pure little kids are. I feel that when I'm trying to take care of my patients, the person that I imagine being woken up at 3:00 a.m. for in the call room, being happy to go help, would be a little kid.

Margaux: Yeah, I think that's great because I think that a lot of women maybe struggle with deciding certain specialties. For me, I'm very interested in surgery, but then the thought of balancing a family with that in the way that surgery is or was historically doesn't fit with my wellness and my idea of having a family and a career.

But I think maybe times are changing and it's something that you shouldn't be afraid of. Motherhood shouldn't stop you from that. It's something that I think I worry about and a lot of women worry about with the more "time-consuming" residencies and specialties.

Kyley: I think that's definitely true, and I think that if you talk to people, you'll get mixed answers about what specialties you "could or couldn't do." And I think it depends on who their mentors were.

So I think if you had a really supportive mentor and you were able to make it work, then you're more inclined to say, "You can totally make it work," as opposed to somebody who maybe had a really bad experience and is going to tell you, "No, this is not a good idea."

So I think it does end up being like, "You know what? Just make the choice and just do it and you'll find a way to make it work." Keeping also in mind the reality that, yeah, it might be really challenging.

Margaux: No, that's really encouraging.

Kyley: But if you know you're not going to be happy doing anything else, like if you know in 10 years you're going to say, "I wish I would've done the surgery residency," then you just need to do it.

Margaux:Do it. Yeah.

Kyley:Don't change your mind because of a kid.

Margaux: Break the barriers and change the new face of medicine, right?

Kyley: Exactly. Then you need to become the surgery attending that is going to support all those moms that come after you.

Margaux: Yeah, I like that. We need to pave the way for change and be the change we want to see in the world. Is that a quote I just stole from somebody?

Jennifer: It sounds great.

Leen: Be the change you want to be in the world.

Margaux: There you go. Thanks, Leen.

Leen: Be the change you want to see in the world.

Margaux: There we go.

Leen: It was a song once. With how successful you guys are in medical school, how does your typical day look like and how do you cope with success strategies and keeping up with the . . .

Margaux:Studying.

Leen:Drinking from the fire hose and then also dealing with your kids.

Kyley: It depends on if we have a test or not. If we don't have a test, I try to sleep in. And by sleeping in, I mean until 7:00 when Addie wakes up every day.

Jennifer: Oh, man, my kids wake up at 6:00.

Kyley: Yeah. So I try not to wake her up if I don't have to, because you want to let them sleep. It's the old adage, you never wake up a sleeping baby. So if I can, I try to let her sleep in and then I try to . . . we like to snuggle in the morning. So if I can, I wake up and she wakes up, and then we snuggle and have breakfast, and then I come into school. So I'm usually here around 9:00.

I don't go to class. I study in the library all day, so that works out for my schedule. And then I study here at the library all day. Addie's at daycare until usually around 5:00, and then I go pick her up. Then we go home, and I make dinner. And I attempt to do a load of dishes or laundry. That doesn't always happen. My house is a disaster ever since med school started. Then we play, and then I put her to bed.

And so sometimes I'll study after she goes to bed if I have to, but I try not to. I try to maximize my study time while I'm here so that I don't have to do anything else. When I'm with Addie, I try to be with Addie. I'm not checking my phone. I'm not trying to multitask. I'm just spending my time with her. And I feel like that's the best thing that I can do to balance motherhood and school, is to be present in what I'm doing at the time.

Leen: So at the University of Utah, our lectures are prerecorded. And so it gives way for students of many different learning styles to kind of accommodate to the way they learn.

So you say that you study all day at the library up until 5:00, and then you go home. And so what kind of gave you that preference to schedule it that way instead of maybe staying at home completely and watching the lectures there? How did you plan that around your learning style per se?

Kyley: It's kind of logistical. So Adalynn's daycare is in Holladay and I live in Layton, so that's about an hour away that I'm driving away from my house to take her to daycare. I don't want to drive all the way back home and then come back again. So that's one reason.

And another reason is that I have two dogs and two cats, and so it's pretty much impossible to study at home because they're meowing at me or barking at me and wanting me to pet them. I just don't feel like I study very well at home.

The library can be really distracting, but we have these cubicle areas downstairs where you can shut yourself in this little cubicle and you don't have to see anybody. So I shut myself in the little cubicle down there and study so that I'm not distracted. And I also like the cubicles because it hides when I take naps.

Leen: Right? That's what I do.

Margaux:Goal.

Kyley: Sometimes I'll set my alarm and put my headphones in and take a little catnap during the day, more frequently than I would like to admit. And so I study in the little cubicles downstairs.

But there are some days I wish, "Oh, man, I wish Addie's daycare was a little closer to my house and I didn't have to drive so far." But in the end, I do study better here.

And it does feel kind of weird knowing that lecture is taking place right down the hall from where I am sitting, not in lecture, but I am able to cover the material a lot better. The beginning of med school, I did go to lecture and since I switched to not going to lecture, I'm doing much better academically.

So, for me, that was the right choice and I'm really thankful that we can do that. If I had to go to lecture every day, not only would I be doing worse academically, but also it would really strain my schedule a lot more. So I'm really happy that we have that option.

Margaux: Yeah, I think that's really helpful to have the flexibility to be able to adapt to your own learning style and adapt to your family's needs.

Jen, what about you? What does a typical day look like juggling studying and your family life?

Jennifer: Yeah, it kind of depends on if we have mandatory class that day or not. I like to study from home. I'm fortunate enough that my children's daycare is really close to my home. So usually, if it's a day that we don't have to be on campus, then I usually avoid being on campus.

And so I'm able to take them to daycare and then I come back home and I usually stick a load of laundry in and then I study. And then if I need a study break, I'll fold the laundry and then I'll study some more. Then if I need another break, I'll do some dishes.

So it's things that I'm really bad at doing when I'm home with my kids anyway that I'm finally able to do at home. So it's kind of nice.

Even though I do take a lot of breaks, it helps me. It gives me a break from studying, which is something I need, but I'm taking a break in a productive way because it's something that my house still needs. And so that's really good.

But my kids do come home early from . . . they come home earlier than I would like to be done studying. So they usually come home at 4:15 and I like to be done studying at . . . 5:30 is usually my cutoff as when I'm done.

And so sometimes I'll go to the local city library and study for that hour and a half. If my kids are coming home early, then I'll usually do that.

And then on days that I have to come to campus for whatever reason, I usually come to campus. I usually take a 6:45 or 7:00 bus. It's about an hour, depending on the traffic, depending on the time of day, commute. It's between an hour to an hour and 20 minutes door to door. And so I use that time to study.

So I do a lot of flashcards and things on my phone. And I found that to be really effective because on my commute there and back, it's a little over two hours that I'm commuting, which sounds like a lot, but that's two hours of solid study time. So that's really been . . . the bus has been amazing for me to take because it . . .

Margaux: That's good. Study time.

Jennnifer: Yeah. Like Kyley said, we both live a little bit further from The U. And so commuting just took up so much of my day, and then taking the bus just gives me so much more.

Margaux: Adds those two hours back.

Jennifer: Yeah. So it's great. Sometimes staying at home multiple days a week, even though it's really good and really productive, sometimes it's a little bit . . . You feel a little bit like you're socially deprived. So sometimes coming to campus is nice just to say hi to someone for a couple minutes in the hallway.

Leen: That sounds like the most perfectly efficient schedule that I've ever heard in my life.

Margaux:Yeah. How do you guys do it?

Kyley: I know. I need to adopt her schedule so my laundry can get done.

Jennifer: I know. Otherwise it wouldn't get done.

Leen:Right? I'm thinking, "Oh my gosh." I even have dishes and laundry and I'm not that efficient.

Do you guys have any other pieces of advice for some of our listeners who may be moms in medicine or are thinking about becoming moms in medicine?

Kyley: My advice would be to try to talk to moms in the medical school where you want to go, not just medical school in general. Because what I've found is that the individual policies of schools in terms of whether or not you can bring your kids or how "family-friendly" the school is, is really variable. It's not standard at medical school.

So I think that if you have a particular school where you really want to go, see if you can find someone who's a mom at that school and talk to them about it and see how supportive the school has been of them.

I think no matter how prepared you are, sometimes the backup babysitter of the backup babysitter calls in sick. So sometimes things happen things happen no matter how prepared you are. And I think that if you're a mom, it's especially important for you to try to find somewhere that's going to be really supportive of that for school.

And then my second piece of advice would be, like Jen and I have been kind of alluding to, just try to maximize your time, however that looks for you. So, for Jen, that's studying at home so she can do her laundry and stuff. And for me, that's coming onto campus and crunching it really hard and then going home and not doing anything else.

So I think finding what works for you and really getting the people around you to rally around you too. If you can find a support system of family or friends that can help you when you have bad days or whatever you need, then that's the best. I'm done.

Margaux: Beautifully said.

Leen: What about you, Jen?

Jennifer: I definitely wouldn't discourage any women, whether they have kids or whether they want to have kids or whether they don't know if they want to have kids, to not do medicine or anything. I would just encourage them to really know for sure if that's something that they want to do.

It is a difficult path, but it's such a rewarding path. And I think you need to know, at the end of the day, that those pros are what you live for and that's what you want to do.

I think too, what Kyley was saying, you do need to have a support group, whether it's family or friends or whatever. I think that's really key. And even as a medical student in general, I think it's important to have that.

And utilize those resources. I go to wellness and talk to the wellness people sometimes if I'm having a hard time managing things at home and things.

Also, at the same time, I think as a woman, it's okay if your priorities change at a given point in your life. Don't be afraid of your priorities changing, but also embrace that your priorities might change.

So I was really afraid that my priorities would change after having my daughter and I wouldn't want to go to school and I'd want to stay at home and be with her all day, but that didn't happen for me. And that's okay. I kept doing what I knew was the right thing for me.

I think you need to keep in mind what your priorities are and continue to do the things that make you happy and that bring you joy to be just a better person in general, whether it's a mother or not.

Margaux: Those are such great words of advice, and I feel so empowered just from talking to both of you. And I hope that our listeners, whether they are already mothers or considering being mothers or not even considering mothers, but I hope all of you listeners walk away learning that we should all support mothers and create a network around women in medicine facing these barriers against being a parent and what it means to be a medical student or a doctor or any health profession, for that matter.

So thank you guys so much for taking the time out of your very busy, very efficient schedules to come talk and share your stories. It's so important to us, and we just thank you and look up to both of you. So thanks.

Kyley: Well, thanks for having us.

Jennifer: Yeah, thanks for having us.

Margaux: Yeah. Thank you for listening to the "Bundle of Hers." Make sure you check us out @bundleofhers on Instagram and Facebook, and check out all of our podcasts on iTunes. All of them. Every single one.

Leen: Don't you dare skip a single one.