S2E21: Finding Sucess in Rejection

Leen: I'm debating if I want to have . . .

Margaux: Oh my gosh, have you guys seen "Shrill" yet on Hulu?

Harjit: No.

Margaux: It's so good.

Harjit: I've heard about it.

Margaux: It's so good. It's like so empowering. I love it.

Harjit: We need to watch it, or I need to watch it.

Margaux: Well, then.

Leen: Welcome back, everyone, to our podcast. How's everyone doing?

Margaux: Burnout is real.

Leen: So today . . .

Margaux: I was just saying, but the burnout is real. Anyway, that's off-topic.

Leen: You know, actually, I'm like on the opposite end right now.

Margaux: I love that.

Leen: Like I've noticed if I get 14 hours of sleep, I have so good energy. Fourteen hours of sleep.

All right, so today in the studio we have Margaux and Harjit, and we're going to be talking about a topic that I think is kind of everyone's fear going into med school, being in med school, and thereafter.

We can all attest to it sometime in point through our education, or through life, where we've had rejections that set us back, but we had to continue to push forward and find our way to where we are today.

It'd be kind of funny if you weren't worried about this as a pre-med, but rejection's a very big thing, I think, in pre-med years, getting into college, even before that. And then through medical school, finding mentors, finding opportunities, and then thereon to applying to residencies. So it's something that we must really become familiar with, I think, but it's really hard to get familiar with, right?

So personally, I think throughout my entire life, I've had instances of rejection. And I mean, this might sound silly, but it really stems all the way back to my years in elementary school, all the way through high school, and then it just continues on through, you know, getting into med school, med school, and thereon.

I know we often talk about mentorship and finding those connections and networking, and that's how people tend to, in a sense, get higher through success, right? For me, I always found that very difficult. And I don't know whether it was the environment I was in, growing up in, you know, kind of two cultures, between two cultures, but I often struggled with finding mentors and finding people who would actually support me.

Oftentimes, especially when it comes to my creative side, I know I've been rejected plenty of times. And when I see mentors that I would approach not help me but help other students, it really kind of set me back, I would say, emotionally.

It wasn't until I got to high school where my mentor, Mr. Kaufman, we talked about him on the mentors episode, he noticed the potential in me. He noticed who I was and what my passions were. I didn't find anybody to help me with it up until then. He really supported me through it.

And so I wouldn't say . . . you know, yes, he's a mentor, but he's also an idol to me. He's also a support system to me as well. But that was one instance where I didn't get rejected, right? And thereon, I would always get rejected, and I would always fall back to him. And I would say, "Oh my gosh, like, this person doesn't want to help me or anything." And he would say, you know, "You can do this yourself. You have the strength and the passion to push yourself forward."

And I really felt like . . . even to the day before I submitted my med school application, my mentor said, "Oh, you'll never make it," or, "I'm not going to help you because you're not going to make it." And I said, "Fine. Well, I'm submitting," and I clicked that submit button, and here I am. And I was one of the first in that cohort to get accepted to medical school.

And so that's kind of been a theme in my life, you know? And so now going through med school, we have to find mentors again. And I'm kind of distraught. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I don't want to go through rejection again." And it's something that we have to get used to, but do you ever truly get used to it?

Margaux: Yeah, so I was rejected from med school twice. And so, kind of in the opposite story from you, I had a strong group of people behind me, like, saying, "You can do it. You'll do it. You'll get in." And then, you know, that first time that I got my rejection, and I didn't even get, like, interviews or anything, it was really devastating. And definitely thoughts of like, "Okay, maybe this isn't for me," and self-doubt. And there's definitely a huge emotional component. I think it's totally natural to start crying and feel, like, super overwhelmed and like you failed.

But then I think what's super important to come back to is, like, you have something inside of you that knows why you're doing this and that passion that you're doing it for yourself, and no one else around you. It's good to have mentors and a support system, but at the end of the day, if you're doing something for somebody else, that's not going to help you through any rejection or anything like that. You need to be doing it for you and in your heart. And that's where you're ultimately going to find the strength.

And so then I applied again, and I got waitlisted after some interviews. You know, that wasn't like a straight out rejection. Like, no one ever sent an email like, "Okay, you're on the waitlist." You know, there was never an official closing time. It was kind of like this waiting, and waiting, and waiting until finally all the school started session, and then you just assumed you were rejected, right?

And that was almost worse than getting, like, a final solid answer. Because there's that hope of like, "What if? What if?" And so kind of learning to balance that, but that hope and that encouragement is always good, I think.

And then persistence, for me, at least getting into medical school, is like not letting the failure get me down, but allowing me to feel it but not let it pull me down. Like, give myself a week or two to really feel it, feel bad, feel overwhelmed, and then like, "Okay, what do I need to do? Let's set a plan. Who am I going to talk to? What am I going to do to be better?"

And I think, like you said, you can really learn from rejection.

Leen: I completely agree with the initial afterwards of getting rejected, I think. It doesn't kind of set in and then you're like, "Oh, okay, that sucked," and then it really starts setting in.

And honestly, to this day, I don't know if I can truly say, like, "What was it that truly pushed me forward other than I can't see myself doing anything else?" Was I happy after I said, "Oh, no, okay, we're going to do this"? I definitely did not walk around smiling on my face, saying, "I'm going to do it." Definitely, I walked around very depressed, very sad, but in my mind, I said, "We're just going to do it. We're just going to do it."

And I think it's super frustrating, especially when you don't have any other information to go on, you know, from these mentors, from these counselors. They are your source of information for these things, and so when they do reject you, it's almost like, "Where else am I supposed to go for this information, for this unknown?" You know?

I remember I cried a lot. I was very depressed. But, well, what else am I supposed to do, you know?

Margaux: I think for me personally, and I don't know if this is necessarily healthy, but my kind of coping mechanism has always been to internalize things. So, like, when I first got my rejection email, I didn't cry. I was at work. I'm one of those people who can, like, open my Step score while I'm, you know, in front of everybody, and then get a bad one and just compartmentalize it. Then I went home and I processed it over the course of the two weeks.

And I think that, actually, a lot of my processing comes in yoga, oddly enough. The movement and just like having time to think, let my thoughts come out in a way that I can digest them, was maybe probably the way I best digested it.

Whatever you need to do in that initial moment, whether it's, like, suck it up and compartmentalize it as long as you process it later, or cry right then and there, scream, yell, do whatever you need to do to, you know, feel those feels that you feel, because it's real.

I think I tried to distract myself with everything else in my life that I loved doing, like yoga and riding horses and volunteering at the adult daycare center that I was volunteering at the time. And I think I just kind of, like, went full steam ahead into that to kind of forget about that rejection. And I gave myself two weeks to be like, "You don't need to make a plan, you don't need to do anything, you don't owe anybody any explanations. Just be." And that's kind of how I handled it.

Leen: I like how you said meditation. For me, I think meditation takes a different form. It takes the form of Islamic faith. Specifically after rejection or during process of when rejection's an option, I very much turned to those instances of meditative prayer and just talking it out between myself and God, I guess, in that sense.

Maybe it's me being on my psych rotation, but we often tell patients who struggle with things like this. We're like, "You know, meditation, therapy, medication, these are the three proven evidence things." And that's definitely . . . I think it shows.

Harjit: I really liked the two examples that you both gave because rejection takes a lot of forms. For me, I struggle with coming into medical school from kind of both prospects in the sense that . . . I've already had this discussion before on several episodes, but I took my MCAT four times. And I remember feeling so irritated because I was like, "I'm not going to stop applying because of this number." Like, it's different if I get, like, a solid rejection. So that's why I'm saying, in ways, getting a solid rejection is sometimes easier to take. Because then you know, "Oh, I need to do another process to get it."

Now, being rejected from forming relationships that you know will either help you grow or benefit you in the future, that can be really difficult because you can't change who you are as an individual, right?

And I think that's where I realized that mentoring is very important, but people will see in you the potential they want to see in you. They won't see what your real potential is as a person. Only you can see that. And oftentimes, we make ourselves blind to that fact because we are our own worst critics, you know?

Because of that, I think that it's really important to understand that rejection is just, like, a byproduct of the expectation that you have. And having expectations is important because they help you move forward, but I think it's also important to know that we can't really expect things from others because we don't have control over them. We only have control over ourselves.

Rejection is just a chronic state of being. There are some people, I think, who are just used to that life. So they're like, "I'm just used to this, so I'm just going to keep on going." So I think, in a way, Leen, that might have just been the reason why you kept on going, because you were just used to that life, right?

Leen: Right, yeah.

Harjit: And I think with what Margaux said, I think that's how meditation and being mindful kind of helped you work through rejection. It's just kind of like a state of being that you kind of just have to work through.

So how I've coped with all of this stuff is just lowering my expectations. Not to say that I'm not pushing myself.

Leen: Oh, that's so different than what I do.

Harjit: I've had this discussion with you because I try to expect nothing because I can't control this. And that's kind of like a spirituality reason with my Sikh faith, and like Margaux said, being mindful, having that awareness that you can't control things outside of you. And that's why rejection is just a feeling that we have. We get uncomfortable. We don't like it. No one likes it. No one likes it. But it's just something you have to work through.

Margaux: But I think you can learn a lot from being rejected as well, and it definitely makes you stronger and teaches you a lot about yourself.

Harjit: I agree. I think to reach that point where it doesn't impact you, you obviously have to go through it. And I believe you have to experience every single emotion fully before you can actually analyze, like, "How can I work on this?"

Leen: I think you're so on point when you say that when someone rejects you, they're rejecting the idea of something they want to see in you, rather than what you see in yourself. I think that's truly on point.

Because for me, you know, in high school and before that, I always thought rejection was more of a, "Oh my gosh, they don't like me," Like, there's something wrong with either what I've done, or who I am, or something's missing, and that means I'm not complete enough to achieve this goal, right?

You know, I guess maybe just getting used to it, more or less. Or finally having that support system who truly said, you know, "You can do whatever you want to do as long as you know you're passionate and you continue."

I was more focusing on fitting the criteria than rather truly pursuing my passions. And I think that's where you find success from rejection, you know? Oftentimes, we think of rejection as a lack of succeeding or a lack of getting the resources to succeed. But I think for those of us who continue to pursue our passions, despite not finding mentors, I think we find success from rejection and it helps us grow and, finally, truly understand who we are, you know? It helps us get a little insight to who we are and what we really need to do to continue finding our own path in a systematic world of success.

Margaux: I think that's so true, Leen. You really can become and find success and a lot of goodness from rejection. It is very difficult to navigate it and feel all the feels and come out feeling successful in the end, but I think it is possible.

And I wanted to share a story about mentorship, specifically in medical school, that I think is important to share, because I think a lot of medical students tend to get very attached and idolize their mentors in an unrealistic way, and then maybe end up getting rejected or having a false expectation of what their mentorship relationship is about.

So back in the dark days before I had taken my psych rotation, and I was thinking about doing orthopedic surgery, I had this mentor who I really looked up to. I worked with her a lot in first and second year, and I really, like, thought we were aligned in our ideals. She had done a lot of work to promote women in orthopedics, set up scholarship, set up a summer research program. And I was like, "This woman is awesome," and I really loved every minute I spent in the OR with her.

And then I got my Step score, which for ortho, a very competitive specialty, was not, you know, quite average for ortho. So that, like, really worried me because I didn't really know what to do and how to buffer the rest of my application.

So that kind of, like, in a way, it was the subtle rejection, right? This idea that a number can make you feel rejected. Even though there's not a harsh rejection paper, it's like, "Oh, I didn't get this metric, so therefore, I'm slightly rejected."

Feeling that way, I felt like I could go to this mentor and ask her for help. Because I had worked with her, I felt like I had the rapport. I felt like she was really on board with my ideals. We shared the same values in medicine and healthcare and the system, quite frankly, like the hierarchy of the system.

So when I told her my Step score, her reaction was to tear up. She covered her mouth with her hand and teared up to me. Like, when you're asking for help, that's not the reaction you're expecting and . . .

So, of course, I started crying and she was like, "Oh, no, that's really bad." And then she said, "Have you thought about family medicine?" Something that I had literally just told her I was struggling on. I did not love the rotation. I didn't like it at all. I had literally just told her that while we were in the OR, and then now, she was suggesting I do. I was like . . .

There were so many mixed feelings. She couldn't offer me anything. I don't know what was going on in her mindset, but for me I was so devastated. In that moment, I was, like, bawling my eyes out.

And then it was funny because I was able to muster up like, "Well, can you . . . I just want to know how I can, like, make my application better so I can be successful."

The only person in that room who could help me was the anesthesiologist who poked his head up and was like, "Well, you can always do better on Step 2." It wasn't the person that I thought I had the most rapport with in that room that helped me the most that day. It was this random guy.

So that rejection was really hard. In that moment, while I was there, I was super emotional and upset. But then on my way home, I got mad. I was like, "No, I'm not defined by a number." And the fact that that mentor defined me by a number really pissed me off. And I was like, "No. Okay, I've learned something about her, I've learned something about the system, and I've learned something about myself. Like, I don't need to rely on anyone else to tell me that I can and can't do something."

Harjit: Margaux, I love that you're sharing the story because I think mentorship is there to give advice. But we should think about those things ourselves. Like, we don't know the story of this mentor that you had. Maybe they've had experiences where they were rejected based on numbers. Maybe they've had experiences where they haven't really seen people with lower scores be successful because they've never given those people that opportunity. Like, we don't know. We don't know that story, right?

Margaux: Right.

Harjit: I think it's so important that you had those feelings, and that's why I think it's so important to be rejected because it helps you. And this is tying into how you say rejection can actually lead to success. I think it is so important that you feel what it feels to be rejected. It does a couple of things. One, it humbles you. Second, it allows you to see that there's not only one way to do things.

And that's why I think rejection is so powerful. Because we went in with having a relationship or applying to med school in a certain way, but then it didn't work out. That doesn't mean it's not going to be successful in the end. It just means there's another way to do something. And that's where I think critical thinking really comes into play.

Margaux: I agree. And I think that's the approach I took after that rejection. I didn't let rejection tell me, "No, I can't do this," and give up. I actually went and found a different person that I could connect with and tell them, you know, "This is what I want. This is what I need. Can you help me?" And if they were going to say no, then I was going to move on to the next person. And so, I think . . .

Harjit: Also, there is a reality just for all our listeners, with people who have below average scores in XYZ to get in wherever they want. Because I will tell you, I'm a below average test taker, but I'm still here.

Margaux: And I know of other medical students in classes above us who had had Step scores below mine get into orthopedic programs. So, like, I wasn't deterred by my number, and I didn't understand, and I didn't want to hear anything about my number. I wanted to hear about how I could move forward. And I found someone who could help me with that.

And so I think taking that initiative and finding it inside of me to be like, "This is what I want." I learned from my rejection that I was maybe too emotionally connected to this person, and I relied on that mentor too much to tell me what to do. And I felt like I maybe had some transference, if you will, into her of, "Oh, she's like me, and so she'll know what to do and what to tell me." And I put myself too much in her hands. And that wasn't okay.

And so, now I'm very much like, "I'm kind of guiding my decisions here." And I'm just looking for advice in my mentorships now.

Harjit: And then going off that same thing, when I was rejected by a number for an MCAT score, I found a different approach to study, and that helped me. These are the ways . . . we find new ways to get what we want after being rejected.

Margaux: So beautifully said.

Leen: Oftentimes, on the interview trail for medical school, a question I got asked was, "How do you deal with failure?" And I think it's because they're looking for students who have not always succeeded in life, but have also failed at times and were able to find their way not necessarily out of it, but find a different way around it.

Like, basically, rejection's everywhere. Rejection's everywhere and it sucks. I'm just saying, like, it's part of the lifestyle, right? Like, you're constantly busy, and you constantly have to get used to being rejected and moving on, or finding a different way around it, because it's going to be hitting you from all aspects. As well as success. I'm not saying that . . . we're not trying to be depressing over here, but . . .

Harjit: I think we get better at dealing with rejection, because we actually go through it, and then let it go.

Leen: Right.

Margaux: And I think the more times you're rejected, the more you're able to brush it off quickly and learn really quickly from it without it, like, really impacting you.

Harjit: Yeah.

Leen: Absolutely. So hopefully, listeners, you don't reject our podcast. No, I'm just kidding. Don't reject us for this podcast. How do we usually close? I haven't closed in a long time.

Margaux: Just a summary.

Harjit: You're supposed to summarize everything we talked about.

Leen: Okay. I think one point that we can all take away from this is, you know, rejection is going to follow you throughout. And it's very hard, especially when you're trying so hard to succeed and get yourself to that next goal in whatever you're pursuing.

But I think, oftentimes, we have to take a step back after rejection or waiting for rejection, or whatever that may come, and just remember that there's always more than one way to do things. There's always a way around. There's always an alternative way to do things. And I think, if anything, the more creative you are in this world, the more likely you will pave your own path. And no one can block your own path because you're paving it.

And so the only thing standing in your way is yourself at that point, and how well you are willing to motivate yourself and push for your passions and really, really fight for what you want.

And so I think we have to also remember there's always success from rejection. I think that's a big point in terms of truly being successful as a person, being able to use those skills later on to help other people come up through your mentorship.

Thanks for listening. Chloe, don't be mad.

Margaux: She's not mad.

Leen: No, I know. Just in fear of rejection, I'm just double-checking.

Okay, so thank you for listening to us on this episode. We really appreciate all our listeners out there and those who follow us on all our social media. You definitely keep us motivated, keep us going, especially when you send us your questions, your thoughts, and your inputs. And always feel free to reach out to us. We really enjoy hearing from you.

And for those of us who are newly listening . . . is that a thing? Yeah, for those new listeners, you can always catch us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter @BundleOfHers.

Again, thank you for listening. Bye.

Margaux: Bye-bye.

Harjit: Bye-bye.

Leen: Bye-bye-bye-bye. Just kidding.