S4E13: Moving Towards Inclusive Feminism

Margaux: How are your house plant babies doing, Bushra?

Bushra: Not so good. I've neglected. One of them is just dead dead, and the other one is sick. She's a little dehydrated.

Margaux: She needs a bolus.

Bushra: Yeah. She needs a liter bolus of LR now.

Harjit: Are there doctors for plants?

Bushra: Yeah, they're called people.

Margaux: Botanists.

Bushra: Horticulturists.

Margaux: All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to "Bundle Of Hers." We are about to start part two of our feminism series, so please make sure you listen to part one before tuning into this one.

And today we have all four of us in the studio, which is so exciting, so whoop whoop. And in part one, we talked about the history of feminism in the U.S. specifically white feminism, and what that looks like today. Especially this mentality of buying into an oppressive system and trying to get to the top of an oppressive system through an advocating platform.

So today we wanted to talk about our own personal stories with feminism and then how not to be a white feminist or how to be an inclusive feminist, however you want to see that.

I will be the first to admit that I am deeply socialized and have internalized white feminism, and it's something that I have just become recently awakened to and starting to reject.

And for me, I think it's accumulation of the past four years in medical school with y'all as my friends but also a conversation that I had with Harjit about my feelings to be needing to be acknowledged all the time especially amongst my friends, you guys.

And when I thought more about it and had deeper conversation, I think it stems from this system of trying to get to the top of an oppressive system. That there is only room for a few of us and you need to be competitive.

And it's still hard for me to find the words for it, but something that I try to be intentional about recognizing every day that I don't need to be acknowledged every day in the things that I do and or say despite how I've been taught to.

Harjit: First of all, I want to thank you for being so vulnerable to have this conversation, because I think it was when me and you had this conversation, it was difficult for both of us.

When it comes to that thought, I think that it's also seeing that we get acknowledged in different ways. It's almost like showing love in different ways, and sometimes you have to verbalize, like, this is how I show my acknowledgment. It might not be the way that it's being heard or seen.

So that conversation when we did have it a couple months back was really important for me, and I think it also taught me to like create a deeper relationship with you in a sense.

Margaux: Yeah. I think that rings true for me too, Harjit, that when you acknowledge the things that, or for me, when I acknowledged the things that were maybe being oppressive to other people or myself even, it allowed me to move forward in a more clear mind space, but also have more space for love of each of you and other people around me and open my eyes to the real barriers.

We kind of talked about in part one of the real barriers to this system. It's like, why are we trying to strive for this patriarchy, these roles that are defined by men? Why don't we make our own instead? And recognizing that (a) for me is asking myself when I feel the need . . .

Okay. So for example, if I was working and you guys went out for ice cream and posted on Instagram even though you knew I was like on a rotation, I would still feel like jealous and upset and like, why didn't they invite me? And I had to be intentional about that. Why am I so upset that I wasn't invited or in thought of or included in that sort of way?

But now it's like recognizing that I don't need to be validated all the time by my friends or like that it comes from within, I guess. And I think part of my new perspective on feminism is that we are all-powerful, there's space enough for all of us to create an inclusive system, to not buy into these ideals that have been set by white men because that's not something I want to strive for anymore.

And thirdly, not getting defensive, but rather learning from the many diverse and important voices that are trying to do just that break down the system made by white men. So that's sort of been my acute transformation from white feminism and rejecting it. I think I have a lot of work to do towards it, but I thank all of you for helping me work towards it and open my eyes.

Bushra: I think it's hard to adapt in a setting when you form friendships with a diverse group of people. I feel like me, Harjit, and Leen share a lot of similarities in the way that we grew up and our backgrounds are pretty similar in terms of like culture. And so, like, it's hard for you to come in not knowing the context of everything that we've gone through and try to, for lack of a better word, navigate that.

You know how much I hate that word, but it's hard to figure things out in real time, and you're going to have your feelings about it, which are valid, but also having the foresight to step back and like think about why you're feeling all of that is very important too.

Margaux: Yeah. I really agree with that, Bushra.

Leen: There's also the approach that maybe if we just have the mindset that nobody out there is powerful, nobody out there has power and everybody who does have power more or less is obtaining it from whether it's a system of oppression or a system built to give other people certain egos and things like that.

I guess when I was introduced to this whole idea of feminism and I don't even want to say introduced, I guess, put a label on what I always thought being equal was as a woman, I realized I was actually surprised to find how many people it offended in the first place. And that was because I didn't realize that there's this whole background of why, like for instance, white feminism, the whole background of it, trying to be equal to a system of white male supremacy.

So once you start labeling it as white feminism, it seems like automatically white male, white masculinity is targeted. And then from white masculinity being targeted, it's like all the oppression systems of whether you're a person of color in the United States, you know, or you go as far back as global colonialism.

And so, for me, I was thinking, well, what if none of us actually had that power and everybody who thinks they have the power is totally just kind of brainwashing themselves.

And so what if we all took a moment to step back and said, "Why am I acting this way? Who am I to act this way?" And kind of just eliminate. Because I feel like the more we put labels, the more we start to finding new types of isms in a sense, the more we start marginalizing people or ways of thought or not even marginalizing, maybe just start creating more tension. Basically, developing new groups with new tensions.

At the end of the day, we're all trying to be human, who are just trying to live, who are just trying to make it, who are just trying to be the best person of who we can be. And if there's anything that makes us develop that into a sense of malpractice with our like ambitions, then maybe it's wrong.

The take that you were saying, Margaux, what if you had taken and you'd actually like flip it for the same sense and say nobody has power. And so when you catch yourself being egoistic, when you catch yourself exuberating that power, you know, take that moment back and say like, "Why am I doing this? Is it really for good or is it to make myself feel better?"

Margaux: I think that was so well said, Leen. Being intentional about thoughts that pop into our head and dissecting them about who has the power to control this thought or like that formed this thought in the first place, like say of the way you have to do a presentation in medicine or like you were talking about in part one professionalism. Why do I feel like I have to buy into this idea of professionalism?

Or like, if you putting on, getting dressed for clinic one day and then you have a thought pop into your head about like, oh, this doesn't look good, but then it's like, who had the power to plant that thought in my head? And maybe it doesn't actually carry power and I can do what I want.

Leen: And even taking it a step further in the sense when someone for instance as I was saying in part one when I have like mentors or people who are like whether they're my attendings or seniors tell me, you have to exuberate this sort of form of confidence. If they had the capacity to stand back for a second and say, "Why am I telling them that this is right?" And in that way, you start building allies.

So for instance, if you start having white males are saying, "Why am I getting defensive about this thought of someone coming at me saying we're equal? Why am I getting defensive about that?" And then they take that moment, they think about it, and then they say, "Oh my gosh, like it's probably a power within me that I'm not realizing is actually affecting others." And so you start realizing, you say, "Okay, I'm going to take that power away." And I'm going to say, "No, we should all be on the same page."

And so that's how you start building allyship. And I think that's the key to when it comes to all of this when it comes to feminism, when it comes to race, when it comes to even just different ways of thought. I think it's having that ally to support each other within it.

Bushra: I feel like that's a very idealistic way to look at things because there are people who do think like that, but I feel like most people, and I don't even know, like imagine if I were a white man in this country and I grew up the way any powerful white man does, would I really want to give up power so easily? The answer is probably not. I wouldn't want things to change where I don't have control and power.

I think that, obviously, it's all an uphill battle. Any facet of anything that you try to change is always going to be an uphill battle because as much as we need to rely on allies, I don't know how to change things from the top.

Leen: And I don't think it's relying on allies, but it's how you create that change. It's just helping perpetrate that wave of change. That process is still going on in many people's heads, and nobody actually does anything about it per se. We just keep creating more and more divides. And why is that? At the end of the day, it's power. It's what it is.

Harjit: And kind of on that like line of power, when I think of my personal stories about white feminism, I think a lot of it, you know, I can bring down to the topic of credit. I always say that's white feminism. I'll just be like that's such a white feminist thing to do.

A lot of it is about credit in a system that is already, it's always been like, I'll already give you examples and I'm pretty sure some of our listeners that you all can also agree. Have you ever been in a group where you do research on something or sorry, you collect responses on something, and the first thought is let's do research on this.

And it's like, okay, but what is the point of the research? Is it just so we get a paper in an article so it'll look good on medical residency applications or it'll show, oh my gosh, you're such an academic now? What is the purpose of that research?

Bushra: It's to gain information to utilize said information to invoke a change essentially.

Harjit: I kid you not, this same thing happened to me every single year of medical school, but like, what about the people?

Leen: Well, I mean, even if you go back to the idea of scholars in the first place, especially in the Western hemisphere and how it was created, the whole idea was like colleges were like there were a group of white men who each like designed their own kind of group of societies. And then they decided within ourselves going to create this research and we're going to be like the high acknowledgeable kind of groups. And then they started competing against each other, and that's how all of this was formed.

So it's not like we say, oh, it's to help people. And I think in a lot of our minds, that is the way it is. But it's within a system that perpetrates this idea of creating these like supremacy powers of saying we're part of this college and you're part of this college. And these colleges at their basis were very exclusive, very exclusive. Women, color thought other thoughts we're not allowed in.

Harjit: And this whole point of credit is let me be again, like Leen said in the past, like closer to a white man. Let me mimic what a white man is doing. This is what is done, this is what we should do. But it's like, no, why can't we create our own paths and our own achievements that aren't defined by what a white man has decided is powerful?

And I think the reason why it hits a chord with me because a lot of the times like growing up, I always thought like, you know, I grew up in a very like gendered system, so I also only thought in the gender binary. There's men, there's women. A lot of that's been complicated now. But I would always be like, "But they're women. Why are they doing this to me? I thought we were friends." You know what I mean? It's like that type of feeling.

So I think a lot of it was betrayal for me when I figured this out, but then going through my journey and understanding what white feminism is, it does make sense. A lot of us aren't critical and it's basically we're playing along with the same rules but that's not what a lot of people want.

Bushra: We all are socialized like Margaux said, in the beginning, to internalize all of these things that we've been taught is the norm. And so like, as you grow up and you continue to learn and expand your mind, you're right, Harjit, you do realize the people that perpetuate this are also being affected by it. So it's like women continuing on to perpetuate sexist ideals, and it's like that's kind of fucked up if you think about it.

Harjit: Yeah. How is that feminism? How is that inclusive? It creates an illusion of equality. And I think that's the issue is we're like upholding this like it's not real. It's an illusion.

Margaux: We are striving for equality in an oppressive system, therefore equality is impossible.

Harjit: Me, Harjit Kaur, I have a hundred papers in a freaking journal. I'd still be Harjit with my identities. You would think that, I don't know, I guess it just hurts me because it's like we're doing this for equality but it's like, you're not uplifting voices that need to be uplifted. We're working in the same system and there is no understanding of even your own internalized stuff that we all have and we've been discussing throughout this season.

And the one reason, Margaux, I'm like appreciative of you being so vulnerable with your story is because, you know, we had that moment with each other. I think that the reason why we're best friends is because we were able to discuss that and grow with it because I also have internalized, you know, I want that validation. "Validation" that like credit, like, oh, I did this, this and this, but where does that thought come from and how is that, in the end, going to bring power to the people and not just to a white man?

Leen: When I was younger, every time I'd like try to rebel as a teenager and my parents would be like, no, or not even rebel, but when my parents would be like, "You can't go to this football game, you can't hang out with your friends, you can't dress this way." I used to always say this statement, I'm like, "I want to find the first person who ever said a woman was less than a man and murder them." Because if you think about like how far back does this shit go? I'm sorry. How far back does this go?

Margaux: I think one of the fundamental things of how not to be a white feminist or how to be an inclusive feminist or person is to intentionally question and acknowledge that (a) white feminism exists and is harmful and acknowledge or explore how it has been internalized and socialized into each of us. And I think that's the first step towards dismantling it is at least just like putting it out there and exposing it.

Bushra: So I just got off of two weeks of my resus rotation, which is basically a combination of trauma patients and medically sick patients coming into the resuscitation bays. And so this last week I had a really awesome senior who essentially was like, "Okay, you're going to be running the show. This is your show, and everyone's going to take a point from you. You're going to be making all the decisions," and he's like, "I'll be like off to the corner. Everyone is, you're the person."

And he said something that was like very glaringly obvious after my first patient for that week. He said something along the lines of . . . he's like, "For whatever reason, people are not going to take you as seriously because not only are you a woman, but you're also a woman of color. So it's going to take a moment, but eventually I need you to assume your position as the leader of this group."

And he said, and I appreciated that he said this, "I will back you up. Every time anybody asks me for a question in terms of clinical decision-making, I will refer back to you because you are the person on point."

I didn't realize how much even when like EMS comes in and you're ready to take report, they automatically looked over to him, even though I'm standing at the foot of the bed telling everyone what to do and I'm like, "Okay, I'm ready for a report," and they look over it to him.

And it was like so frustrating because obviously we all go through this training and we're all trying to be better physicians. And I'm trying to learn how to be a better doctor, but I feel like I'm fighting for like the acknowledgement that I'm supposed to be here.

And I don't know if you guys have felt that during residency at all, but it's like I think getting more and more in my face lately because in a few months I'll be a senior resident and that's a scary transition to make between first and second year because you have a lot more responsibility.

Harjit: How does that make you feel? Because I think like when I gave my example of usually working with some woman who wants to then do research of information that they've gathered, it always made me feel small.

Bushra: There's a lot of times this week that I have felt small because of just like a backhanded thing somebody said to me or like somebody that didn't agree with my clinical decision-making. And you obviously want to form a cohesive team and a team that in which like people can say things to you, but it's just a matter of how you communicate those things that is imperative.

And so like I've had conversations with people like after a tough case where it's like, hey, like, I appreciate what you're trying to say to me, but in the moment, like you can't just yell in my face. It's taught me to be more, I don't know if stern is the word, but more . . .

Margaux: Assertive.

Bushra: Yeah. Assertive, I guess.

Margaux: I think that those thoughts are also rooted in this internalized feminism. It's like, if you're not abiding by the rules of the system, if you're the woman that's speaking out or just by your own presence leading a resuscitation, it's challenging to those powers. The way we were raised and socialized makes us terrified to challenge that. And I think you're so strong to keep pushing and overcome them even though it makes you feel small and unheard.

Bushra: I think as the week went by, I grew more comfortable in my position just taking a hold of the room and like commanding room and like talking to EMS and specifically saying you're giving report to me and say it loudly to the room so that everyone hears you and like asking people to do specific things by name so that you can say, "Hey, so-and-so, I need you to work on IV access. You're going to push meds, you're going to put the pads on whatever."

And so it's all like a learning process, but it's interesting to think that like, you know, a lot of the men probably don't have to deal with half of the shit that we do.

Harjit: Oh, definitely. Definitely not.

Margaux: So I think we've summarized what and how white feminism is. Well, what it is and how it is harmful in terms of the climbing to a position where your privilege is the intentional goal rather than making a just world for everyone. So I guess ways that we combat this or change.

I think we've talked a little bit about how acknowledgement and being intentional about understanding how we've internalized this deep-rooted way of thinking.

But also, I think to move towards not being a white feminist is dismantling the gender binary. This whole idea that women have to be equal to men is, is like the whole gender binary is also rooted in racism and oppression. And so, if we just reject the fact that these genders exist and one is better than the other, it's like, no gender is fluid, gender's a social construct. And by recognizing that gender binary, contributes to this idea of white feminism, then maybe we can work towards removing it.

Harjit: I agree with that. And I also like wanted to add like how I in the workplace try to be more critical and be more inclusive is also being kind to myself. I laugh a lot, I'm bubbly. I am not going to change that personality of mine. My patients can have a doctor who maybe talks all "cute."

I think there's a beauty in being like assertive and strong, but there's also a beauty in being who you are. And if that's more of like "feminine qualities," you still can be a doctor and still take decisions.

And I think that's how I try to push this idea in the sphere, in my workspace is, you know, I'll come into a patient's room and I'll be like, you know, having a conversation with them and they'll be like, "Oh, we want this. Should we talk to Dr. So-and-so?" I'm like, "I am your doctor," and then I smile.

I think people need to get used to that there's many different faces, many different personalities, many different ways of being a doctor.

Margaux: Right. That's so true. And I think part of the work to be done is reaching beyond your comfort zone and listening to other BIPOC, trans, queer people, all of their narratives and how they are functioning in this world in these oppressive systems that are also impacting us as women and how their ideas about changing the system.

If we all come together, if we all remove this idea that there's not enough room for all of us and that one of us has to be better than the other, then we can open our minds to the fact that there's space for all of us and we're all like you were talking about, Leen, we're all powerful together. And that's when I think big change will come.

Harjit: I think so too. And I think like, that's what I guess because I'm doing psychiatry, I know like half of our treatment is therapy and building relationships with patients. I realize like there's times I'm tough, there's times I'm kind, there's times I'm funny, and I can be all of those things and still do a good job at my work and help work with my patients to help them heal.

And I think that's kind of the basis for me of why I am so grateful, Margaux, that you led this topic about white feminism is because a lot of it is just, we all should be what we want to be and we don't need to follow things that existed. We need to create our own spaces where we can create a just world. And it's not about, look, I did this. It's more about we did this together.

Margaux: For each other.

Harjit: Yes.

Bushra: So to close out this awesome discussion about white feminism, Margaux has chosen an awesome poem to share that I will read. It's by Jasmin Kaur, and it goes like this.

"The empowerment that I seek does not degrade other women. I will not suffocate someone with that which allow to breathe."

On that note, thank you for listening to our conversation. You can visit our website at bundleofhers.com. We're on all streaming platforms. Follow us @bundleofhers on Instagram. And until next time. Bye-bye.

Margaux: Yay.

Harjit: Yay. We made it.