S7E3: Navigating the New Normal—Medical Residency Interviews in the Virtual Era

Mariam: And then when you're put on the spot, your cold opens just are never that good.

Lilly: It's kind of nice when Chloe's camera is on because then she'll nod with us and I'm like, "Yeah, someone agrees."

Mariam: Oh, I know. All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to "Bundle of Hers." This is Mariam, one of your semi-OG hosts, back in the virtual studio with one of our new hosts, Lilly. And then surprise, surprise, one of our OGs, Margaux. Say hi. 

Margaux: Hey.

Lilly: Hey.

Margaux: I'm so excited to be back. But also, I have a cold. So you get the nasally version of me. 

Mariam: Everybody's a little sicky right now. Yeah, I'm so excited to have you back in the studio, Margaux and Lilly. It's so amazing to have you on our season.

Today's episode is going to be about just generally residency interviews and then matching into residency. And the reason why I wanted to do this episode is because Lilly and I are in our fourth year of medical school in this really interesting, unique time where we're medical students, but we don't feel like students because we're taking all this time off to interview for residency. It's such a strange process, and I think it's a process that doesn't get talked about enough. And so we're going to chat about our experiences.

But we especially wanted to have somebody who's already been through the process on this podcast, specifically who interviewed before COVID when interviews were in person. Right now, for those of you who don't know, Lilly and I and the majority of us are conducting the majority of our interviews virtually.

So wanted to kind of get some perspectives on what it was like to do in-person interviews. Then we'll kind of reflect on how the process in general has been.

I actually just kind of want to start with Margaux, because you were the era of pre-COVID when all your interviews were in person, right? None of them were virtual. 

Margaux: No, virtual wasn't even a thing. And I think it's interesting because right now, many of us fourth-year residents who are graduating are the last class that did in-person interviews. So after us, it's kind of left to this whole virtual world. So I think that's an interesting transition.

But it was five years ago, so we're going to go down into the bowels of my brain and my memories about interview season. 

Mariam: Bowels of your brain?

Lilly: I don't like that.

Mariam: I love that. I'm going to use that, the bowels of my brain. Okay, sorry. 

Margaux: No, you're good. I invented that on wards last week when my brain was not functioning.

Mariam: I'm going to make it a thing, like fetch in "Mean Girls." Bowels of the brain. 

Lilly: Your brain is offended.

Margaux: Says our budding neurologist. Deeply offended.

Mariam: I know. You should love it more than anybody. Okay. Sorry, Margaux. Tell us about the bowels of your brain. 

Margaux: So interviews in person were, I would say, a huge financial stressor, because if you think about it . . . So I did nine total interviews. That was nine total round-trip flights. And sometimes if you were lucky, you could do some in the same area. Some people did drive locally and things like that. So financially, the burden was all on you as the med student.

I remember starting med school and one of the fourth-years saying, "Hey. Take out an American Express or some sort of credit card that will get you miles now so you can save up miles in the next four years." That kind of financial burden. 

Mariam: Wow.

Margaux: Some programs would pay for your hotel for the night, but most wouldn't. So you were also paying for your own lodging and transportation, whether it was Ubers or taxis or whatever. It was a lot of money. I think we didn't even think twice about it, and I think that's one of the best things that I've seen come from the transition to virtually since when we had to interview.

I think there are a lot of other negative sides that I see from doing only virtual. But I'm curious how you guys are experiencing virtual now and your ability to connect with or get a feel for the culture of a program.

I think for me, interviewing in person, that was one of the most valuable things. The happy hours especially, when you just got to hang out with the residents and it was a real happy hour with real drinks and real food, but actually sitting next to a person and you could really see how they were connecting with their co-residents and connecting with you. And I think the virtual happy hours sometimes, as a resident doing them, are kind of painful, to be honest.

Mariam: Yeah.

Margaux: So I'm curious for you all what it's been like. 

Lilly: I feel like it's so interesting hearing everything that Margaux went through because I can't even imagine doing all of that with our virtual interview season. It kind of reminds me when we applied to med school and had to fly out, and I just can't imagine how expensive it must have been to fly out to nine programs.

But for me, I feel like it looks really different because it is virtual. So usually, people recommend not scheduling more than two a week. And at first, I was like, "Oh, but I have so much time. It would be fine." Then once you actually get into it and you do have two a week, it's not just that you sit through a one-hour interview. It's like you have the happy hour the night before, and then you have an interview day, and then there are post-interview thank-yous if you send them. It just ends up being a lot more than just one hour of your week. So I actually do think it's a good idea to try and limit it to two a week.

But usually, the week before, I'll go through my email and get extra paranoid because everything is in a different time zone.

Mariam: Yep. That's so real.

Lilly: And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I could sleep through my interview on the East Coast that's at 6 a.m." So I spend a lot of time freaking out. I would write out all of the times and make sure I know what time it is in Utah, Mountain Time, so that I don't sleep through it or miss it.

And then I usually like to go through the emails. Usually, programs will send you something beforehand with your schedule on it, and it'll say who are the different faculty or residents that you'll be interviewing with. And then sometimes they'll send you the PowerPoint or just information about their city. I like to usually go through that.

It gets kind of tiring to go through it for every program. But if I really don't know anything about that city, it is helpful because you're not going to see everything from a virtual interview. They're just going to show you pictures. Sometimes they'll have videos. But you really have to figure out, "Can I live in this state without having ever been to the state before?" which is a really weird question to ask. So I usually do that the week before.

And I like to just Google search some of the people who I'll be interviewing with, just because I'm curious what they're doing or if their specialty is something that I'm interested in. I'm applying in neurology, so there are a lot of different sub-specialties that you can go into.

And then from there, the night before I try to go to sleep a little bit early because a lot of programs do start pretty early in the morning. And then I get up and I get ready, kind of how most people do for Zoom school. You obviously get to wear your comfy clothes on the bottom and just your business professional on top. My go-to is fuzzy socks because it just helps me feel a little de-stressed.

I guess it depends if you have your interview day versus the social, because the socials are usually at nighttime. And like Margaux was saying, I also feel like they can get kind of painful if there's nothing to talk about.

Some programs do Jeopardy-style games or they'll do scavenger hunts, which are surprisingly fun and they make it go by a little bit faster. And then other ones, it's like two hours of them asking if you have any questions about their program, which gets really old really quick because you run out of questions after the first 15 minutes. But I have learned some good questions to ask that sometimes are helpful to get conversation going.

Then the actual interview day, let's say it starts at 7 a.m. Some of my interviews for neurology, they can be three-hour days. I think my longest one was a seven-hour day. So it just kind of depends.

Mariam: Ugh.

Lilly: I know. Can you imagine? It was two-hour breaks sometimes in between interviews and you're just camera off waiting until . . .

Mariam: Just staring into a void.

Lilly: Or they'll leave you in a room with other residents and the residents will be like, "Do you have any questions?"

Mariam: "What questions do you have for us?" That's triggering to me at this point. 

Lilly: I know. And I'm like, "I already asked you questions last night. Please don't make me ask you more questions now."

Then usually it's 20-minute interviews with each person, which actually I feel like that's the part that we stress about the most. I get really anxious sweating thinking about how the interview is going to go.

But that's actually, I feel like, the part of the day that goes by the fastest because you just get in conversation, they ask you more about your application, and it's exciting to hear people who actually are invested in you and the work you've done. You get to talk about all of these things that you're involved with, which is really nice.

Then sometimes they'll try and really sell you on their program, and they'll tell you reasons why they think that you'd be a good fit or why their program would be a good fit for you. Or sometimes they'll just say, "Do you have any more questions?" and you have to think of something because they're someone who's interviewing you and they want to see if you're interested.

But afterwards, as soon as it's off, I just lay in bed and don't move for, like, 10 minutes. I just be a potato and I think about everything I said. I'm like, "Wow, that sounded really dumb," or, "Maybe that went okay," or, "That was horrible. I did so bad." You just kind of mull over it for the rest of the day. 

Mariam: Lilly does this thing that I have adopted where she says that she's lying in bed and she just rots. And I felt like I resonated with that so much. The post-interview rot is definitely a real thing. There would be days where I'd interview and then I had the whole evening off, and I would just lie in bed. I'd get into bed at 5.30 p.m. and just stay in bed until nighttime. So that's a real experience. 

Lilly: What is it like from your perspective? I'm curious. Because my days, I feel like, seem a lot different than even your interview days. 

Mariam: Yeah, because we're also applying to different specialties and I think every program is different. I guess my day in the life or whatever does start with the pre-interview social the night before. I feel like my experience with those is just staring at a Zoom screen and uncomfortably just smiling at each other until one of us asks a question. Then the residents are like, "Any more questions?" and then we're just like, "I don't know." It's this uncomfortable exchange.

And then the next morning, we wake up early. I put on my blazer. I'm also wearing fuzzy socks of some sort. And I stare at a screen and I'm sweating through my blazer. I am so happy that Zoom filters exist because if they didn't, then that would be problematic for my sweat stains and my tired under-eye circles and all that.

Then I just kind of power through my interviews. I mean, it's just hard. The virtual interviews are just really difficult because you're in this virtual setting, right?

And so on the one hand, I feel like Lilly and I were well prepared for the virtual interviews because we were a COVID class. So a lot of our stuff was virtual when we started medical school.

But then on the other hand, it's like you're doing a disservice to yourself and the program because you're not really getting a feel for each other. That relationship building and that gut instinct that you get, that I think Margaux kind of alluded to prior, is so important.

Now that all of our interviews are over, the biggest piece of advice I get from people is to follow your gut instinct when that's kind of hard to do when it's over Zoom.

And I don't know if you felt like this, Lilly, but I just felt all of the programs were starting to merge into one experience towards the end. There was just a point where I was like, "This is all so similar and we're all just subjected to this process." Yeah, sometimes it can feel a lot. So that's kind of just what my virtual experience has been.

Then I would log off and then I would rot. I would probably text Lilly and be like, "Yeah, I don't know. This program was awesome. This program wasn't." Just text the vibes, and then you just go about your day.

I feel fortunate because I did save a lot of money. And if I was interested in a location, it's not like I couldn't book a flight there and check it out myself on my own terms. But I feel like it is kind of challenging because of that gut instinct thing that we were talking about. 

Margaux, it's so interesting you talk about the travel, the expenses, and everything. But I will say I'm sure when you were actually face-to-face with somebody, it made a huge difference. Or maybe it didn't. I don't know. Do you think it did?

Margaux: I definitely do feel like everybody will get that vibe from being in person. But I really enjoy having in-person connection with people. And I think that I got so much benefit just from sitting in a room with the interviewer and being able to read their whole body language to know and get more information.

Even with people I was interviewing with, knowing who could potentially be my future co-residents and what kind of vibes I was getting from them and the people who were really liking the program. I was like, "Do I them? I don't know." There was just so much covert data gathering that I think I got from just being in person that I think is a disservice to you all in doing purely virtual interviews for sure. 

Lilly: I'm also curious with Margaux's experience, when you traveled to these other states to see the schools, did you also linger in the city to see what the neighborhoods are like? Because that's another thing that I think about a lot. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to be there, but I'd also like to leave the hospital and have other things to do."

Sometimes I'll search up spin studios in their cities. And I'm like, "Will I be able to work out? Do they have other things?" And it's just so hard to determine that when all you have is Google and their Facebook page or their website to read more about what to do in these states. I'm just curious what that was like for you being able to actually go there and see it.

Margaux: It definitely did that. My version of spin class was bookstores. 

Lilly: Oh, nice.

Margaux: So I usually would fly in . . . They always say, "Give yourself 24 hours' cushion to get there." So I was usually there either the evening before or the afternoon before and would have some time on my own to go explore. And so I always would look up a bookstore.

Most of the interviews were within walking distance of cities and things like that. So I would go find a bookstore and a coffee shop and kind of check out the town that way. I do think that was a really helpful piece of having some time to explore the city.

And then for the extroverts out there after the interviews, instead of the bed rot . . . I also did that, but it was in a hotel bed and not nearly as great. The extroverts would go out on the town and hang out with each of the applicants. And so I think that was also really fun for them and another way that people got to see the city.

So during those interviews, they would also give you things that the residents really liked to do and suggestions of things to do in the town if you had extra time.

And you could also build in a couple extra days if it was a place you were really interested in. You could stay an extra day and totally check it out or bring your partner with you if that was relevant.

Lilly: This sounds so sad, but I feel the closest thing . . . I don't know if this happened to you, Mariam, but the closest thing I have to relate to that was I would see someone on the Zoom screen who I had seen in another interview.

Mariam: Yes.

Lilly: I would be like, "Oh my gosh. You don't know me, but you are now my friend."

Mariam: Yeah. "Hey, girl." That's me. I had an applicant reach out to me over a personal Zoom message and ask for my number because we had seen each other a couple of times. Yeah, we were vibing. It was kind of a nice little experience of camaraderie.

When you're doing it virtually, you're just like, "Oh my gosh. Am I the only one feeling these emotions?" It's kind of hard. And for me, I didn't want to talk to the other OB applicants because we're all just so anxious, and I didn't want to be like, "What are your experiences?" So you're kind of stuck in this weird situation where you're just like, "Did I say stupid things? Did I ask all the right things?" It can be kind of hard.

I feel like being in-person is much more reassuring. And also, I'm just a much more charming person in real life. I'm not nearly as funny virtually. It's hard to feel like yourself when you're online.

This is actually a really funny story. There was one interview that I was just for some reason really struggling with. I felt like there was just a lot of awkward conversation, lots of awkward pauses. And I was like, "Oh my gosh. This interview is going horribly."

This has never happened before, but my computer just turned off in the middle of the interview. And I was like, "It's a sign." I'm just kidding. But I was like, "Are you kidding me?"

Then I'm trying to troubleshoot, trying to restart my computer, and everything. It's taking forever. And then the person interviewing me had my number, so they called me and they finished the interview over phone call. And they were like, "Now you have something to remember this interview by. Now you're a standout applicant because you were the one who lost connection." I was like, "That's a great way to be remembered."

Lilly: Really?

Mariam: Yeah, you're like, "Oh, yeah. You're going to rank me super highly." But it was just a really interesting experience. And looking back on it now, it's funny.

But I think there are definitely pros and cons to virtual versus in-person. One thing I did want to talk about really quickly on this episode is something that a lot of program PDs or just interviewers throughout this process have really advocated for in keeping virtual interviews is that it gets rid of a lot of bias in the process. And I thought that was really interesting. I was wondering if you guys had heard that.

Margaux, I know that you are kind of on the other end of it now where you're a resident interviewing potential incoming interns. And so I was wondering what do you think about how virtual interviews impact bias in the process, if at all? 

Margaux: I think it's an interesting statement to say that virtual interviews improve or eliminate certain biases, because I think it also introduces its own set of biases in a different way that in-person does. So I would challenge that statement. I think we all need to be mindful, especially as the people who are interviewing and looking at applicants, to be aware of those biases.

And I think you both brought it up of, "Thankfully there are Zoom filters and things like this," and what's in your background. That was going to be a question for me, is how much thought and time and energy did you both spend in setting up your lighting and your place where you do your interviews?

I think that while we want to say it's not, every time I'm on a Zoom happy hour, I'm always like, "What picture do they have in the background? What do they have? What colors are their walls?" Those things just are natural to us as curious humans.

But I do think, and especially as women or for myself as a woman, I would be so hyper-focused on, "How is my hair?" and on all these things because you're looking at yourself during the interview.

I don't know if you guys turn your mirrored camera off, but that's something that is a whole different mindset that's so different than in-person interviews. In the in-person, it's just you looking at your interviewer and not wondering how they're also perceiving you in that moment.

So I would say I think it introduces a different set of biases that we always need to be careful of, and that blanket statement of, "It improves biases," should be challenged.

Lilly: Yeah. I remember when I first started interviewing, I also started hyper-fixating on everyone else's backgrounds because you don't really want to stare at someone's eyes the whole time. So you just start kind of wandering through all the faces.

And some people would be very intentional. They would introduce themselves and usually a question would be like, "What is a hobby you have?" And they'd be like, "Well, behind me is my guitar," or, "Behind me is the skyline in Florida," or whatever, and they would talk about their hobby.

And so I also intentionally was like, "Well, if I just have a white wall, they're not really going to remember me that well and they're not going to be able to differentiate me." Sometimes everyone had a white wall and it was really freaky and very monochrome looking.

I ended up putting up shelves and I put my hobbies up on the shelves, so when they ask me, I can point to them. But that was very intentional for me because I was noticing that others were doing that, and I was like, "Oh, maybe I should be more mindful about my space."

I also really try to avoid looking at myself in the camera because then I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that one piece of hair is sticking straight up. Are they staring at that piece of hair or am I staring at that piece of hair?" And then you're like, "Stop staring at the piece of hair. Stare at the person who's talking to you." So it definitely gets to you a lot, at least for me.

Also, kind of talking about what Mariam was saying about technical difficulties, I've also had my Zoom disconnect multiple times during interview days. And then you just get extra stressed out because you're just like, "Oh my gosh," I've had that happen a couple of times.

Even one time, I decided to do an interview when I was visiting my brother in his apartment and he was at work, and the fire alarm went off in the middle of my interview. And I was like, "Do I leave? Do I not leave?" And then I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I leave, they're going to think it was rude that I left the interview. But if I don't leave, are they going to think that she doesn't evacuate in an emergency?" Luckily it turned off after a few minutes.

It's all these external factors that you just can't control that, at least for me, sometimes really affected how I felt like I performed on interview day.

But then I also think realistically, some of these interviews that I got, I never ever think I probably would have gotten or even applied to some of those programs because I would have just been so intimidated of applying, but then also of being able to travel and pay to stay there and visit that city.

I just feel like it would have really restricted my options versus in the virtual setting, I feel like I had a lot more options and a lot more programs I was able to get to know.

So I feel like it has downsides, but it also has pluses. And it's kind of like this weird cost benefit. I don't know if there is a perfect system, but at least it was nice to get the exposure. I just don't actually know what anything is like through the camera.

Mariam: I think, for me, the financial burden of applying to a whole bunch of programs and then traveling and being financially responsible for all of that would have deterred me from applying to as many programs as I did this cycle in reality.

I do think it's an interesting conversation. In that sense, more people do get opportunities that wouldn't have otherwise applied who probably . . . Like you mentioned, Lilly, there were some programs I just shoot my shot. I just have to pay for the application fee and everything. But if I get it, then that's great. I don't have to pay for an extra plane ticket or whatever.

And it was a good opportunity for me to, like I mentioned, shoot my shot at a program that I wouldn't have otherwise considered. And so I am grateful for that.

I couldn't imagine the burden of how much student loan debt I would have been in. That's insane to actually think about, because I'm actually in quite a bit of debt right now.

Lilly: Same.

Mariam: I didn't have to take out any extra loans for the travel and for all of that. And so that's a really difficult thing to consider.

One thing that I constantly think about as a medical student, we're a very vulnerable community, in my opinion, because a lot of us come from backgrounds where our parents are not financially stable, or we don't have that level of security. And we go into this medical system, which is a total gamble, right?

We've all been through the four years of medical school. And it is a tough four years for a lot of reasons, not just physically, intellectually, but also emotionally. There is so much that goes into this process, and you have to sacrifice so much.

And it's not a sustainable process. I feel like once you kind of get to the end, you're just like, "Oh my gosh, I've spent so much money. I have zero to no resources." It's a tough process and it's very vulnerable and you need a job.

Lilly and I did a New Year's dinner, and we were talking about our resolutions, and Lilly was like, "I just want a job. My only resolution is to match." Yeah, at the end of the day, we just need a job. We just need to match.

I think, in this process, I was also reflecting on that too. We jump through so many different hurdles and we worry about how our hair looks on Zoom and what the vibes are like when we're at this resident social, but really kind of taking a look at the big picture, we just really need a job. We just really want a job.

And that was kind of the thing, too, that I was really reflecting on after wrapping up my last interview, getting caught in the weeds of like, "Oh my gosh, how am I going to rank these programs? Virtual interviews were difficult because I wasn't able to really differentiate the vibes."

And now I'm like, "There are a lot of things to consider," but I think I am trying to be in the mindset of, "I'm going to be so grateful to just have a job, be grateful for the fact that a program is going to make me an OB-GYN." That was a tangent.

Lilly: That was a really sombering tangent. 

Mariam: To everybody in our audience, that was more for me and less for you guys. But I think it's just something I've been keeping in mind.

Also, just shout out to the audience. I know a lot of you guys who are listening are either interested in medicine and haven't applied yet or are in medical school. And hopefully this episode sheds some light into how the process is and also gives you a little bit of perspective and what to look forward to. I think things are likely going to change as the years go on. I do think virtual interviews will continue to be a thing, but it's definitely a really interesting process. 

Lilly: For those who don't know how match works . . . If you're applying to med school right now, the nice thing about when you apply to med school is if you do get multiple acceptances, you get to choose where you go.

But with the match, although we get multiple interviews, we don't necessarily get to choose where we go. We submit the rank list in the order of where we would prefer to go. And theoretically, the algorithm is supposed to work in the favor of the applicant, but then the programs also rank everyone that they interview.

And so you have to hope that the algorithm works in your favor and you match somewhere where they wanted you just as highly, which is how sometimes people will end up unmatched if they aren't able to connect with another program on the other side.

So it's kind of terrifying because when we say, "Oh, we like this program," or, "We love this program," or, "There are pluses and minuses and pros and cons for everything," at the end of the day, the reason why we just hyper-fixate on at least matching is because it's a possibility of not happening.

And we only get one. We don't get to pick where we totally, completely go. Although they say you have some say. 

Margaux: But that match day, it's legally binding, which is terrifying. 

Lilly: Yeah. I didn't know that either. I recently learned that. 

Mariam: I'm going to have to leave the country or something if I hate my match. I'm just kidding. LOL. You guys will never find me. I'll drop off the grid. Just kidding. I'm chronically on Instagram. It's bad.

I mean, it's actually kind of crazy, right? If I was applying to any job outside of becoming a doctor, it wouldn't be like this. I would interview for a job and then I would be able to pick any job acceptances that I have and I would have some level of agency over my decision. But in a couple of months, who knows where I'm going? I mean, I have an idea because I'm going to rank the programs I interviewed at, but it's like, "Who knows?" 

Margaux: That's why I think whether in-person or virtual, it is so stressful because you have to put your best foot forward. Even if it's not your favorite program, in your mind, it's like, "It might be the only choice. If they like me, maybe it'll be the one chance I have to get a job."

And I think your thought of talking about financial stress is a really good topic because there's so much unsaid there about medical school, but then also in residency when you aren't even granted retirement accounts. Yeah, topic for another day. 

Mariam: Lots of important things to think about, right? As much as everybody tells us to put trust into this system and this process, and we have really no choice but to, I think it's also important to be mindful of how really vulnerable our community is.

While I'm very grateful, and I feel a lot of medical students are very privileged to be in this position, we're going to have good jobs and lots of job security, the process to get there is not an easy one and is a very problematic one.

I feel like one thing "Bundle of Hers" does really well is we take everything with a grain of salt and we're critical. That's something I feel very proud of.

And reflecting back on this interview process, I feel grateful, but at the same time, I wish things were different personally, virtual or in-person. I wish that our opportunities didn't have to feel so cutthroat and that things weren't so competitive when it comes to just securing a job. Nobody should have to go unmatched. We all worked really hard, and we all deserve a position.

Margaux:  Absolutely. 

Mariam: That was my soapbox. 

Lilly: I feel like the conversation I've been having a lot with my classmates and my friends is just, "I want to end up somewhere where they wanted me and where I felt they would have appreciated what I bring to the program."

So kind of what Margaux was saying about we get lost thinking about all these different things, I always think about, "Well, at the end of the day, I really don't have as much control as I'd like to have."

And so I just kind of focus on wherever I do end up, no matter where it is on my rank list, I'll be really grateful that I have a job. Although it's unfortunate that we don't really get to have as much agency in doing that, like you were saying, Mariam.

But at the same time, even if I don't match at my number one or my number two or my number three, I will match somewhere where they really wanted me and I feel that's where I'll do really well. And I think that that's something that I keep forgetting.

We make all these pro/con lists and we really want to hyper-fixate on what is the best option, when in reality you really do want a program who genuinely wanted you and wants to train you. And I'm hoping that everyone gets to be in that position come the middle of March. 

Mariam: Me too. This reminded me of . . . shout out to one of our OGs, Harjit. This has nothing to do with match, but I thought it was a really good analogy. So in dating, there was a period of time where I was dating and I'd be like, "What if this person doesn't like me?" And Harjit was like, "Who cares if he likes you? Do you like him?"

I just feel like when you're dating and you're figuring out what you like, that's kind of how residency programs are too. So for all you fellow fourth-year people who are in this, or if you're a future going to be in this position, think about what you need and what you want, too. I think that goes a long way in this process as well.

Anyway, shout out Harjit.

Margaux: I love that.

Mariam: Great dating advice. 

Lilly: I do love that. She'll always ask, "What do you like about them?" And I'm like, "Whoa, that's a good question."

Mariam: "That's a good question and I feel stupid for not being able to answer that right now." I can't tell what's worse, dating or interviewing for residency. They're both kind of a lot. Anyway. 

Margaux: In wrapping up, I think the differences between in-person versus virtual, we've explored the pros and cons of both, but it's sort of tradition of offering our own suggestions.

And my thought to the solution to this would be for some programs to offer a handful of in-person interviews, kind of like signaling, and you could pick the programs you really wanted to go see in person for in-person interviews and do virtual the rest of the time.

I don't know how you'd fully balance the financial privilege there, but some food for thought for making change in our . . . 

Mariam: I have some thoughts because sky is the limit. I feel like they should make everything in person, but they should pay for our flights, they should pay for our meals, they should pay for our lodging.

Can we just be so for real? These programs have the money. They are lying. I am in lots of debt because my program has tons of money from me, just me as a person, so I know that there is money somewhere. People are going to say there isn't, but there is. And we can dream big on "Bundle of Hers," so that's what I would do. 

Margaux: I love it. 

Lilly: One thing that I think about is . . . especially because residencies have been combined with MD and DO, but the number of spots is not increasing proportionately. Statistically, they're really setting us up to fail, to be honest. Statistically, people will go unmatched, which is super unfortunate.

So in my eyes, this whole new signaling system that's come out, at least in my field, it was a hit or miss. I don't know if it made a big difference. I know for other specialties, it does make a big difference.

One, I feel like it would be nice if, as students, we had a cap of how many programs we could apply to. And it would all be under one base fee as opposed to extra charges per program.

I feel like if we had a cap, then that way you'd really have to choose what your top 10 or 15 or whatever programs are, and you're really investing in those. That way, programs know that I'm not just sending every single possible school my application because I don't want to go unmatched, even if I absolutely have no desire to live in your city, which I know lots of people are doing because we have this fear of not matching. So I feel like if they capped us, we would be limited to really pick those ones.

And then I feel like because of that, they should offer interviews . . . I know that you're not supposed to send more interviews than you have spots for, but programs do it and they'll guise it under a waitlist or they'll just tell you, "Here's an open spot," or whatever. I feel like they should only send as many as they actually have interview spots for.

I like Mariam's idea of paying for us to be able to go out there, because it really would have helped me to see these places. But knowing that some people are applying to double or triple the number of programs I applied to, that also is an inequity because I don't have thousands of dollars to just immediately drop on applying to every program across the country.

So I don't know. I think that that would help, although I'm sure other people might have different opinions about that and want the opportunity to apply everywhere.

Mariam: I know. It's such a tricky conversation. I only know from my perspective of going through it, so it's hard to say.

I will say that residents are cheap labor, right? But it would be nice to feel invested in, because we do . . . I say "we" because we're about to be residents. We do important work. And I know Margaux can definitely speak to that.

So I think that's kind of how I'll wrap it up. Thanks, you guys, for being on this podcast. This was a lot of fun. I feel like I got a little ranty there, but it was kind of nice. Cathartic is the word. 

Margaux: That's what we're all about. 

Mariam: Yes. Catharsis on "Bundle of Hers." Thank you all for tuning into "Bundle of Hers." What do I say, Chloe? Tune in to . . . Oh, wait. No, I want to do a cutesy thing. Hold on one second. So thank you to everybody listening into "Bundle of Hers." I can't do this right. Margaux, just do it.

Margaux: I love it. I love that it wasn't too long before I came back to "Bundles" as now a guest, which is fun. But I haven't forgotten how to end it.

Mariam: That was shade. 

Margaux: To all our dear listeners, I'm trusting you in the hands of these wonderful new podcasters, as well as some of our pseudo-OGs. But thank you all for listening. I'm so glad I got the opportunity to chat with you again. And I hope you tune in for the rest of this season wherever you download your podcasts. 

Lilly: Wow, that was beautiful. 

Mariam: Oh my god.

Margaux: It only took me seven years.