S7E11: Laurel — Participation as a Way of Transformation

Hạ: Wait, really? So do I not give off five-four energy? Do I seem smaller than I actually am?

Laurel: Everyone thinks I'm taller than I am, and I'm shorter than you, and I don't really understand why these assumptions get made.

Hạ: What is this? This is so offensive.

Laurel: Same conversation, really. So, my dearest friends, it is I. I already am off to a really Laurel-like start. I, Laurel, they/he, user of strange words. And so with me today, Hạ. And here with us, we have my dear friend Abby, Abigail Jones. It's da-da-da Laurel's identity episode for "Bundle of Hers."

Hạ: Woo.

Laurel: Thank you for the cheers, friends.

Hạ: Applaud.

Who Is Laurel?

Laurel: And while I do refer to myself as the bad boy of "Bundle of Hers," it has not caught on. And so this is a really good episode to explore who Laurel really is. Because I truly believe that we know ourselves through community and others, I thought that maybe we could briefly tell the stories of how we met.

Abby, of this group, you've known me the longest. You've known me longer than most people in my life, I think, at this point. And I don't know if I know that story from your perspective, actually.

Abby: So we met shortly after moving into the dorms freshman year at the University of Georgia.

Laurel: Go dawgs.

Abby: Yeah, go dawgs. And we met through a mutual friend of a mutual friend, basically, who was Peter's roommate, who we don't really talk to anymore. And I distinctly remember the first time that we met.

Laurel: Oh, dear.

Abby: We all went to this half-priced, off-campus bookstore.

Laurel: Oh, yeah. And we sang.

Abby: Yeah. And to get a free t-shirt, we had to sing a song. We all sang together and got free t-shirts, which I still sleep in to this day. So that is how we met.

Laurel: I love that you mention that, because Abby and I have been getting into . . . Abby is helping me go on a textile journey, and I've started patching things. And that free t-shirt that we got, I was actually thinking that, because it's starting to get a little ratty, I might try and take out some of the Athens imagery to turn into patches for my denim jacket.

Abby: Oh, nice. That's a great idea.

Laurel: Yeah. So I don't think that we expected that our university ties would carry us from the University of Georgia to the University of Utah, but here we are years later with our sort of school spirit still on display.

And speaking of University of Utah, that is where more or less Hạ and I met each other. I know this story better from your perspective, Hạ, than I think Abby's, because we've revisited our meeting on multiple occasions. But if you want to tell the story from your perspective.

Hạ: Yeah, I am happy to tell the story. So, for a bit of context, when I start with starting out at the University of Utah for med school, I was a bit nervous about what people would be like there and if I would find cool people, especially as a queer woman of color. But I was still figuring out the queerness part of myself at that time, too.

At the University of Utah for med school, they assign us with a big sib, so a person who's a second-year, when we enter first-year to be our buddy and to help us navigate through things. My big sib was doing MD/PhD, and I was supposed to go to the farmer's market with her one day, and she said, "Oh, can I invite another MD/PhD student who is going to be one of your classmates?" And I said, "Sure. More friends."

So we met, and I immediately thought Laurel was super cool. Oh, they love cool music. They seem really passionate about cool things. They seem really funny and a lot of fun.

After meeting them, I actually messaged one of my friends and said, "I think I might be okay at the University of Utah based on this one person I met."

I actually even agreed to go on a hike because I thought they were going to go on that hike with our class. And then they didn't go, so it was actually really awkward after that.

Laurel: Oh, no.

Hạ: I thought it was a good experience, but also, I apparently give a very standoffish vibe because I later learned that I did not give off that impression to Laurel.

Laurel: It's not your fault, but it might be. But the same experience. I went home, and I was like, "Oh, God, I probably seemed so weird. I don't know if this person likes me." And Hạ went home, and it was like, "Wow, my new best friend."

But it all turned out okay, because at our white coat ceremony, I was very honored that Hạ asked if we could get a photo, just the two of us and our white coats. And I was like, "Well, surely you wouldn't ask me for a photo if you didn't plan on being friends." And so we have matching white coat photos, and then we have a photo together four years later when Hạ matched to UC San Fran.

So we've got photos together on important occasions, which is really what friendship is all about.

I'm really touched that you felt like you were going to be okay at the University of Utah. And I think that's one of the reasons, perhaps, why I'm a host on "Bundle of Hers" and how I resonate with the themes of exploration and discovery.

I think that I am a person who has gone on, let's call it, a journey of self-exploration over the decades of my life. And I think that because of that, I view community to be essential both for how we figure out ourselves and how we find strength in others.

And so I'm with two of my favorite queer gender-funky people, and I think that's something that as, again, the bad boy of "Bundle of Hers," I have had to figure out a lot of gendered stuff. And even as I move forward into my technically mid to my late 20s with my birthday this summer, I'm excited. I feel like I'm very much still in a phase of exploration.

I told my therapist a few weeks ago that I am in my experimental era, which largely means that I am taking up embroidery, and I bought a stand mixer. But I'm really excited about these changes, and I hope to be open about myself in a way that makes other people feel like they can do the same.

But I also have some pretty massive blind spots because I only exist internal to my own noggin. And so I asked y'all to think of three words separately to describe me as homework and to not cheat and tell each other. So you better not have, or I'm going to be so mad. That's not true. I love you guys. I won't be mad.

But I am very curious to hear those words, because, again, I think friends are much better mirrors than we can be to ourselves. So, Abby, do you want to tell me your words?

Abby’s Words for Laurel: Linchpin, Active, Family

Abby: Yeah. Well, Laurel, you had joked about my words for you being Aries, bachelor, and Peter, which I think is funny, but I went with serious words.

Laurel: Whoa. Serious.

Abby: Sorry, I guess. So the words I chose were linchpin, active, and family.

So I chose linchpin because, in my mind, I really see you as kind of the linchpin for so many groups of people and groups of friends in terms of just organizing get-togethers and kind of keeping everybody together and communicating and keeping those friendships alive, which I think is really lovely. And also, you are obviously a very important linchpin in my own life.

I chose active because you're always doing something. Even when you're at home relaxing, you're doing your tarot or other things. Just constantly very active.

And then I chose family because I very much consider you to be my family, and also because you have become a very important part of my family with my parents considering you kind of their other child and everything.

And so, yeah, that's why I chose those words.

Laurel: I love it. Did I tell you your mother made me cry at a work event on Friday?

Abby: No, you did not.

Laurel: Classic your mom. People looked up, and they were like, "Why are there so many emotions on your face?" And I was like, "I'm sorry."

Your mom said, basically paraphrasing, that she had concerns about you not having a sibling, because your mom can lean on her sister and you don't have someone to lean on. But then I guess you pointed out that I'm here, and I was really touched by that, and I was #cryingattheclub, as it was.

And so I appreciate, I guess, the word choice of family, because as queer stereotypes, the idea of found family, I think, is really integral to our experience. What is that . . . is it Applebee's, "when you're here, you're family"?

Abby: Yes, I believe that is Applebee's.

Laurel: I was trying to give off Applebee's energy, I suppose, and so I'm glad to have perhaps found some success in that.

Hạ’s Words for Laurel: Vivacious, Community Builder, Accomplice/Accomplished

Hạ, is it permissible for me to ask you your words?

Hạ: Sure. Of course. I feel like maybe giving off Applebee vibes is great, because doesn't Applebee's have those really good margarita deals or something?

Laurel: I think so.

Hạ: They're super fun. So I hear. I've never really been there.

But that is a good segue to my first word for you, which was vivacious, because I feel that you're a very lively, fun person. I focus a lot on work and gloom and doom, but even amongst the gloom and doom, you keep things funny with memes, with TikTok videos, with reality TV shows, watch parties, with funny YouTube quotes, and things that you just reference in your everyday conversation.

And then similarly, I chose community builder as another word because I do feel like you are really good at bringing in different communities together. For our dear listeners, if you don't know, Laurel hosts all of these amazing parties, and I'm always meeting different people from different spaces that I don't exist in. And somehow, Laurel has been able to find all of those spaces, and find all of those people, and build a community from it.

And then the last word I chose . . . It's technically two words, but I'm playing off of sound, and it's accomplice/accomplished because it sounds very similar. Some people would say, yes, I guess on paper, based on the capitalistic measures of success, you are accomplished, Laurel. But I think you are very accomplished in many different ways, too. But you're also an accomplice, because I know that if I need to get angry about the world and throw down with anyone, you're one of the first people I would call to do it.

Abby: Same.

Laurel: I am so honored. I had a conversation with someone a couple of weeks ago. I'm in this book club with people who largely grew up in Utah and then left the Mormon church as adults but had experiences being adult women in the church, which is very different from being a teenager. And they were talking to me about rage and anger because we were raised that anger isn't an okay emotion, let alone a productive emotion. And so we had this conversation about anger really being informative.

And so I think that that's something I appreciate you bringing up, because I know that I am a silly person, and I am aware that I compared myself to Applebee's very, very recently. But I also am ready to get angry and frustrated and to recognize the things that I think should be recognized, especially with my friends and accomplices and comrades, if you will.

And so I think that that's a balance I try to hold, is the space for joy and joviality, but also attention to where different emotions are appropriate.

I think that we've had a lot of laughs and also a lot of laughing-so-we-don't-cry, perhaps, conversations. And I think those are relationships I'm very lucky to have, and I'm lucky to have with y'all.

Laurel's Words for Themselves: Curious, Care, Participant

I don't know if it's cheating, but I picked out three words for myself because I would never want to ask y'all to do anything that I wouldn't do.

The first word that I picked was curious, which I think is probably why I am always doing things. I am insatiably enthralled with the world around me, and I feel like that is an intrinsic motivator and is probably what makes me so interested in people. I'm fundamentally curious to their experiences and how they parallel or differ from mine.

I also picked the word care, not in a self-aggrandizing way, but because I care so much about literally everything, and I have no chill whatsoever. A friend of mine had, I guess, a friend horoscope that they sent recently that was like, "Laurel is hiding that they secretly give a fuck." And I'm like, "I don't think I'm doing a very good job at that, to be honest with you. I care so much about everything."

I told someone that my stand mixer that was delivered was actually white, because I had mentioned that we got it in black, and I was like, "I can't have this person come to my house and then see a white stand mixer." This occupied my brain space until I was like, "I have to tell you the stand mixer is white." And they were like, "Okay."

Anywho, the last word I picked was participant, which I just read "Braiding Sweetgrass" for the first time and I think it is an incredibly wonderful, beautiful book that everyone should read. And I bought a physical copy just so I could lend it to people.

But I knew that my identity episode was coming up, and there was a quote from it that I highlighted that I really, really resonated with that basically says, "One half of the truth is that the earth endows us with great gifts. The other half is that the gift is not enough. The responsibility does not lie with the maples alone. The other half belongs to us. We participate in its transformation. It is our work and our gratitude that distills the sweetness."

And this quote specifically is about work turning maple sap into syrup, distilling the sweetness. But I think that I have really been trying to reflect on who I am, and I think there are a lot of identifiers. Obviously, I am a trans icon, and I am obsessed with my dogs and Dungeons . . .

There are a lot of, I think, attributes you could list on my character sheet, so to speak. But in trying to sum them up, I think I fundamentally believe in participation as a way of transformation. You have to get your hands dirty sometimes, and you have to be there, and you have to be a part of the process to get something out of the process. That's what distills the sweetness.

And so it's a clunky word, mayhaps, but it's, I guess, the third word that I landed on. Boy, did I sweat over it. So thank you for listening to me ramble.

Hạ: I didn't feel like those were rambles at all. It's all very beautiful.

The Power of Being Unapologetically Yourself

Laurel: I appreciate it. We, I think, have a general consensus of I do various things, hence the slashes. MD/PhD/Sci-Fi writer. I also wrote the note that I wanted to bring up: spite and fight (and love). I think that we have really captured the Laurel sentiment.

But in terms of the "Laurel experience," I wanted to brainstorm with y'all. What are Laurel lessons at the level of the individual and at the level of the system? I am a trainee in healthcare. This is a podcast, sort of, for both trainees in healthcare and people in healthcare, both as providers and as patients, but also people navigating a very black-and-white world, perhaps, as a very quirky, prickly, some third thing individual, just like me.

And so if y'all had to give someone advice that is Laurel life-lesson-certified, what would y'all think to say?

Hạ: Wait, that's so stressful.

Laurel: I don't want to stress you out.

Hạ: I feel like I'm like, "What? I'm supposed to emulate?"

Laurel: No. What horrible decisions have I made that other people can learn from?

Abby: Well, this isn't related to horrible decisions, although I guess from a corporate recruiter point of view, it would be a horrible decision. But this is both on a personal and kind of a systemic level of how to navigate the system, being that you are always unapologetically yourself. And I think a lot of that comes with being trans and queer and neurodivergent and that sort of thing.

But something I have always very much admired about you is that you don't strongly limit yourself or limit your personality around other people in certain settings because that is what may be expected of you, and your existence is proof that you don't have to water yourself down in order to be successful.

That is something that I've tried to emulate as I go throughout my life as well, to varying degrees of success.

Laurel: I mean this with so much love in my heart, I love the slight backhanded compliment of, "You are proof you don't have to water down your personality to be successful." I know exactly what you mean.

Abby: I don't think it's backhanded at all. Especially with medicine, there is this expectation of what you have to be, and you have to be kind of . . . I don't know.

Laurel: Rigid and serious.

Abby: Yeah, and boring. And you're proof that you can be a fun person . . .

Laurel: In medicine.

Abby: . . . in medicine.

Laurel: I know what you mean. I'm just giving you a hard time because, to be honest with you, I sincerely don't know how to not do this. I maybe have tried and failed to rein it in, but it's something I've thought about a lot, especially as not only did I have to get into med school, but in my PhD, I had to find a lab and find a PI. I had to have this realization that maybe I'm not going to be wanted in every space, but every space that I'm in, I'm going to be wanted.

And so I have a really, really wonderful lab and PI, and everyone I work with is fully aware of me, but that means that we get to have full and meaningful friendships and collaborations, and I'm really lucky that I don't have to put pieces of myself on and off in different spaces that I'm in, even though sometimes I am not welcomed back places, but that's okay. I like the places I go to.

Abby: And if you're not welcomed back, it's not a place you want to be in anyway.

Laurel: Totally. Yeah. Hạ, have I still stressed you out?

Hạ: Yeah. Well, I'm constantly stressed, so nothing new. I've been trying to think through it very deeply, and I think one of the things in a way does piggyback off of what Abby was saying.

One of the things I remember that we've had conversations about through med school was always about community and finding community, and sometimes feeling like you're putting yourself out there and not really knowing if you're getting that feedback back.

And one of the things that I struggle with a lot is feeling really afraid of willing to take risks and willing to do things because of that fear of rejection. But what I've really appreciated in seeing you is that, regardless of what goes on, you're always coming back with a lot of space for people and a lot of love.

You also have, from what I've been able to see, very solid boundaries, too, and a very good sense of awareness of yourself and when people aren't doing good for you and not worth it, essentially.

But I do always notice that you're willing to give a lot of space and continually being open to people, and trying to find new groups of people and new friends to meet.

It's something that I really admire in you, and it's something that I also try to emulate, too, as I've been moving about and trying to reclaim . . . I've spoken about this a bit, but I do sometimes feel that medicine takes over our lives so much that we kind of just become medicine. We become the hospital and that image of the doctor in the scrubs and things like that.

And I feel that you're . . . this is so not eloquent, but your openness about . . . There are just no good words to really describe the energy and the vibes that you bring out into the world and the bigness of your heart that you're willing to give out. And it's something that I really . . .

Yes, it is "just Laurel", Chloé. I apologize to our listeners, but hopefully someone can TLDR what I just rambled out.

Curiosity and Boundaries as a Life Philosophy

Laurel: No, I really appreciate it. I'm really touched that you used the word "open." My interpretation is, I guess, that I am pretty willing to put myself out there, and sometimes I get hurt. But that's okay, because I really love people, and I really just want to show up for them.

A lot of that boils down to, like I said, I'm curious. And for better or worse, I usually believe that people have reasons for what they're doing, and I don't ever want to make a judgment until I understand what someone's reasons are.

The example, I think, that comes up a lot is I will send people memes without a response and just assume that we're all good, and then people will apologize for not texting me back. And I'm like, "I'm going to keep sending memes."

I think that I like to show up as myself and what that entails, and assume that other people have their own lives and galaxies going on within them. And when it gets reciprocated, I get to celebrate that. But my constancy doesn't change.

Again, med school is so all-encompassing that I understand that, Hạ, it took you a few months to get through 400 of my TikToks. But you got through it, and that's friendship, baby.

I kind of wanted to close off with a poem. I'm often stealing silly YouTube quotes, but I'm also often, I think, taking poems and song lyrics to quote a lyric by the books, I believe it is. Others are saying things much better than we ever could.

And so this is a poem by Kate Baer that says, "I will enjoy this life. I will open it like a peach in season, suck the juice from every finger, run my tongue over my chin. I will not worry about cliches or uninvited guests peering in my windows. I will love and be loved, save and be saved a thousand times. I will let the want into my body, bless the heat under my skin. My life, I will not waste it. I will enjoy this life."

I love poems about fruit, it seems, but also, I think the metaphor of fruit and maybe breaking something open to enjoy the sweetness inside is something that really resonates with me as someone who's maybe had a hard go of it. But I am determined to love it here and love the people in my life, god damn it.

I am grateful that y'all are in my life, and I really appreciate y'all. I don't know why I didn't expect y'all to be so sweet to me. I invited you on a podcast about me, and for some reason I was like, "They're going to be like, 'What a goofball.'" But I'm really genuinely touched on y'all's reflections and the opportunity it's given me to reflect.

And if anyone would like to provide a TLDR for any of the descriptions on this, we love audience participation.

Thank you for listening to an episode about me, which is always . . . Hints of myself are going to be in whatever podcast, but a full episode on me is such an indulgence and a treat.

I would love for anyone to listen to it, but especially the other episodes of "Bundle of Hers" with our many wonderful hosts, which can be found wherever you listen to podcasts, Spotify, etc. Please subscribe, rate, and review.

We are also on Instagram and have our own website, and you can hear not only my silly comparisons to food franchises, but also the insight of some incredibly badass women in medicine, which is the real reason I'm here, is to learn in osmosis.

So thank you to my dear friends, thank you to our listeners, thank you to the cat running laps in the background. It has been an honor.