S1E18: The Road to Medical School

Harjit: Okay, last time. I'm sick of talking about my MCAT score. No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead.

Margaux: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the "Bundle of Hers." Margaux here, with Harjit in the studio. And we've had a lot of support from our fans on Instagram. That's @bundleofhers. If you haven't checked it out, you should. And lately, we've had a lot of questions pop up about the application process for medical school. And so, in today's episode, we want to address those questions.

And then we also have a special treat. Two of our Instagram fans who are currently in the process of applying to medical school are going to call in and talk to us and ask us some questions.

Harjit: I'm so excited.

Margaux: Yeah. Me, too. So, to start us off, we have a question from . . . we got the same question from @guess_julio and @shelbydeynzer. And sorry if I mispronounced your handle. But their question is, "What made your application stand out and unique?" Do you want to start off, Harjit?

Harjit: I think what made my application stand out and unique was, number one, and it's super cliché, but just be you. And also, I think that takes some processing. So what I did was I made sure I was reflective about every experience I had and really honed in on what I learned from each experience, and then I communicated that well.

So I think that really makes your application stand out. One is being reflective about every experience you had. Find the lessons that you've learned. And when I say communicate it well, that means it's written well so that people really get drawn into your story.

Margaux: Yeah, I agree. In short, I would say it's not about what you do. It's about why you do it and communicating that on a personal level. As pre-medical students and applicants, we generally have the same broad categories of experiences, because every school requires a certain amount of volunteering and a certain amount of shadowing, and this, that, and the other. So we all have the same general experiences.

And for me, the key was to make it personal and really explain why I was doing the experiences that I was doing rather than what I was doing or the quantity that I was doing.

I actually applied to medical school three times. I was rejected the first time and got waitlisted the second time. So I had a lot of time to kind of ruminate and go back through my application process.

And I think one of the things that really helped me help my application stand out was going to people I knew who could give me honest critical feedback and kind of just swallowing that bitter pill. No one wants to face and lean into what they're weakest at, but I kind of did that, and I feel like that really helped. So if you can push into your weaknesses and make those areas better, that helps, too.

Harjit: I think that's such great advice, Margaux.

Also, @shelbydeynzer asks, "How long does it take to complete the application, not counting waiting for letters of recommendation?"

I applied once, but I took the MCAT for a couple of years. And every year I took the MCAT, I always had an application ready, because as soon as I got the scores, I was going to submit. I just never met the minimum requirements in one section, and that was the verbal reasoning section. Through practice tests and practice questions, I was able to overcome that and did really well on my last MCAT.

But I would say the application process, usually, if you do things quickly, will maybe take about a month. And that means not working on it 24/7. That means maybe just doing an hour or two every day.

You have to do a personal statement and also talk about your experiences. My experiences had about four drafts, and my personal statement had about eight or nine drafts. So it takes a while for people to give you feedback.

I usually had someone read them because it's good to have new, fresh eyes looking at your statement, so it takes some time for that back-and-forth. So I would say a month is a good amount of time.

But if you live in a good world where you have time and you have space and you know you're applying to medical school, I think you should start working on your application two to three months in advance.

I had that advantage where I would have an application ready every year. So I saw a huge growth in my application even between the three times I did have an application ready.

Margaux: I think that's all really good advice, Harjit. Another thing I would add is that if you know you're applying to medical school eventually, but not quite yet, I would keep a running list, whether on your computer or in a notebook you know you're not going to lose or on your phone, of all your experiences.

If you come to the month before applications are due and you have to lay out all your experiences and calculate all the hours and do all of that in that one month, it's going to be really stressful.

But if you have a running list of how many hours you volunteered at this place and that place and what the experiences mean to you, as well as kind of . . . I kept a running log of personal experiences or the people that I met and interacted with in each of those experiences on that sheet, and that really helped me save time and make a clear, concise application.

Harjit: Margaux, I love that advice. I think it's so important, and it helps with that reflection process that I had discussed.

So another question, from @heartinhanalei, was, "What is the best way to prepare for the interview? What are some of the topics discussed during interviews? Are there any specific experiences any of you had that really impressed the admissions committee?" So, Margaux, do you want to start out?

Margaux: Yeah. First, I just want to say that we recorded a podcast about interviews. Maybe our fourth or fifth episode. But check that out too to get more information about the interviews.

But to answer your last question first, for some specific experiences that any of you had that really impressed the admissions committee, I think it's really hard to know what experiences that we had that the admissions committee were impressed by because you don't actually get to interact with them. You don't really get feedback from them afterward.

But if I had to think, I would go back to our previous answer about it's not what you do, it's why you do it. And if you can really speak on a personal level about something you're passionate about, I think that moves your interviewer or a committee more than just seeing quantity of different experiences.

Harjit: Margaux, I agree with that. I remember when I was interviewed, one of the doctors, I could really tell she was really interested in my story. And the reason she was interested is because I talked about all the things I learned and how all of my experiences actually overlapped. So I think if you can find the connection between all your experiences, that's something that is really, really impactful.

Margaux: I would agree with that. During my interview, I was asked something along the lines of, "What was a difficult time that you've learned from?" And I explained a specific encounter I had had with one patient who I had made judgments about their character that actually weren't true.

But I think the fact that I was able to use that patient's name and really relate and have that experience stick with me made that experience stand out more than just, "Oh, I shadowed with this doctor, and I learned about this specialty." So I think being able to put a name on a person that has helped you grow is very important.

Harjit: Yeah, I think that's great. And kind of going back to your first two questions, how to prepare and what are topics discussed, usually, everything you write in your experiences and your personal statement, those are the things they generally pull from. So that's another incentive of writing a really good personal statement and experiences. They'll talk about what you've already talked about.

So just really knowing that those experiences are, first of all, honest. I think it's really important that you put what you did do, because then you will know it fully. So you don't even have to, in a way, prepare. I mean, you do kind of have to structurally prepare, but if you know that "I did this" and what you really learned, if you really took the time to think about it and did that prep work earlier, then it's so much easier during the interview process.

Margaux, would you agree with that?

Margaux: I totally agree with that.

Harjit: Okay, perfect. So now we have our first caller calling in, Chloe Stallion. Chloe, are you there?

Chloe: Hello, everybody. I'm Chloe Stallion. I am a junior undergrad at Vanderbilt University. That's located in the heart of Nashville, in Tennessee. I'm a double major in anthropology and a biology major as well, specializing in ecology, evolution, and organismal biology. I identify as African-American. I'm also a woman, and my pronouns are she/her/hers.

And I guess my process right now that I'm going through is just studying and preparing for the MCAT, which I plan to take in March so that I can apply next fall, late summer.

Margaux: Good luck.

Chloe: Oh, thank you. Actually, that's probably what's most stressful right now in my life, is preparing for that test since I know it's super demanding, super long. And a lot of people decide to take a gap year, and since I didn't, I'm like, "Oh, gosh." I'm trying to juggle everything and study. I'm hoping that I only have to take it once because I don't know if I could this much stress twice.

Harjit: Yeah, makes sense.

Chloe: I had a question about the format of the MCAT. As I'm studying, everyone's telling me certain strategies for the reading sections, for the science, and the behavioral analysis sections. But I'm wondering, is it more strategy that's going to help you on the MCAT, or is it more the content of what you learned in gen chem, in organic chemistry, and physics, and things like that? Or is it more strategic, like the ACT is?

Harjit: Really knowing how to take a test is the key. And what I find is the best solution for that is doing practice questions. So I ended up taking the MCAT four times, which I have already discussed. But the last time, the reason why I think I did well was because I did so many practice questions. It just helps you get into that mindset of answering questions a certain way.

Margaux: I think it's important, too, when you're studying for the MCAT, you'll recognize different categories of how questions are written, and then they have a subset of answers for that.

So your question is . . . there is a lot of strategy. A lot of the MCAT is learning how to take the test, and maybe only a part of it is the actual content. You memorize those physics equations, and then you have to figure out how the question is structured to be able to answer it.

And that's where Harjit was saying those practice questions. That's the most important thing you can do, is take practice tests and practice questions so that you can learn to rapidly recognize the type of question that they're asking, because that's ultimately the strategy.

Harjit: Right.

Margaux: And unfortunately, the content is very little. I took the old MCAT, so I don't know how the new one is.

Harjit: So, Chloe, I took the new one, and I think, yes, a lot of it is just practicing. I never took a psychology class, so the books . . . I think I used Kaplan. The books were enough for me to know what I needed to know for the test, but those practice questions really helped me know what I needed to know. Does that make sense?

Chloe: That really helps. I also did not take a psychology class because of the pre-med classes and my bio classes that I had to get done. So I never had that opportunity. And I was worried, "Well, am I going to just do horribly on the behavioral analysis section because I didn't take a psych class?"

Harjit: That's a total valid concern. But those books that they use for these tests usually have everything you need to know.

Margaux: Right. I would also recommend Khan Academy online. It's a free video resource that has also helped me a lot in medical school. But there's a lot for physics, biochem. I don't know if they have psychology.

Harjit: They do.

Margaux: But those are great little quick lectures that just summarize the key points that you need to know for the test.

Chloe: I definitely am going to utilize that. I used Khan Academy so much in high school. I didn't realize it extended that far up.

Margaux: Oh, yeah.

Chloe: But that's really nice.

Harjit: We still use it.

Margaux: It's amazing for medical school. It saves you. And the other thing I think I wish I would have utilized when I was studying for the MCAT is a flashcard service. Anki is a free one. And there are lots of online decks where people will just publish their decks of flashcards for free. And I know there are a bunch of MCAT ones.

So I wish, especially for physics, I would have used or made my own flashcards for memorizing the physics equations. I don't know if you're a flashcard person, but it's something I wish I would have utilized.

Chloe: Yes, everyone's telling me that I should just flip through flashcards of different molecules and things like that every day. I'm like, "Oh, goodness. That's a lot." But if it helps, I definitely . . . I know flashcards help a lot of people, so I can imagine it would be helpful in the MCAT as well.

Harjit: I think it's important that you kind of balance everything because it can be an exhausting process.

Margaux: Yeah. Earlier, you mentioned that you're stressed, and you should be because you're studying with your regular classes and taking the MCAT, and it is a lot of stress. But I want you to know that you're not alone in feeling completely stressed. Sometimes it helps to just close your eyes, take a breath, and tell yourself that you've got this. You feel overwhelmed, but it's okay. You're going to get through it.

Chloe: I mentioned that I was African-American, so I am a minority here at Vanderbilt University. And I know that you guys, on your blog and your Instagram, talk about how you're all from different backgrounds. And so I'm wondering, I guess, what was something that made your experience a little bit different or difficult than other people's? How did you overcome that? And do you use each other to be successful in such a rigorous environment?

Harjit: I think, for me, it's difficult because I never saw Punjabi or Sikh people in medicine. So I never knew that was something that I could attain. No one in my family has ever gone to college other than my sisters now. When we came to America . . . We're from a village in India. I think the path was really, really hard.

I remember my middle sister went through med school. And when she was applying, she also . . . That process, I was like, "I don't even know if this is possible, right?" I remember her working so hard, and she's like, "I've never seen anyone go to medical school." We didn't know a single doctor our whole life. It was hard. I think it was hard because you have that doubt, like, "Can you do it? Because I don't see people like me doing this." Does that make sense?

Chloe: Yeah.

Harjit: So I think when my sister went to medical school, that's when I started seeing that I could do it, and that gave me a lot of confidence. So I do see how it's helpful when you know someone that's gone through the process, or at least someone that looks like you.

I think the reason why the four of us connected so much is because we were from different backgrounds. So Bushra and Leen couldn't join us today, but I remember having this same conversation with them. Bushra's family, same. They were refugees from Somalia. And then Leen's family is from Palestine. So, with Margaux, I think we got a different experience. I felt like Margaux, she really understood us. And that's why we became such good friends, because she supported us and our identities, and we supported hers. Right, Margaux?

Margaux: Right. Yeah, totally.

Harjit: And so I think that's why the four of us created such a great combo. Also, Margaux is from Utah, and so are me, Bushra, and Leen. So I think that was another connection the four of us had.

Margaux: Yeah. While I'm not a minority, I identify, I guess, as a white woman in medical school. Well, I'm maybe not a minority compared to the class. As a woman, I definitely feel like a minority, especially in medicine, and there are a lot of hurdles that I feel like women from any background have to overcome in medicine. And by finding friends, such valuable friends, in Leen, Harjit, and Bushra, I've become stronger. They support me, and they encourage me.

And I think one of your questions earlier was, "What did you guys find within each other?" I think the most important thing for me is having a positive support network of people I can rely on to not only encourage me and provide a non-toxic, positive environment in an already very stressful academic situation. I feel like I can actually grow when I'm with these women and that we can have difficult conversations. And I can open my mind and learn and grow from each of them as I hope that I will be able to as a doctor.

Harjit: Right. And also, Chloe, I think it's really important that you find people with these similar goals as you. And again, not the same, obviously, because the differences are what really help us grow. But I think it's important that you find people that understand your perspective and your background and support who you are as a woman, as an African-American woman. I think these are all important things. And we need people like you in medical school. Does that make sense?

Chloe: Yes.

Harjit: So I'm so happy that you're applying because we need representation. There is low representation of women, of people of color. And these are the things that are important.

Margaux: I agree with that. We definitely need you.

Chloe: I definitely feel like I have a good support system from my family. Neither of my parents are doctors, know nothing about the medical field, but when they found out that I wanted to go into medicine, they were super supportive. And sometimes if I call home crying or just sound like I'm really stressed, they always have really good words of encouragement for me. They pray for me, which really helps me out a lot.

Harjit: That's nice.

Chloe: And just knowing that I have that support system, yeah.

My friend group here, they're so supportive. And it's funny because none of them are pre-med, except for one. One girl is pre-med. She transferred in last year. And so it's nice having someone who understands my struggle. But before her, none of my best friends were pre-med at all. They all went towards business avenues, so completely different curriculums. But they were so supportive. I always got texts or calls before a test, after a test, and things like that.

Margaux: That's great.

Chloe: And they were so supportive of me along the way, and they were always encouraging me. So I definitely do have that support system, and they definitely have made my Vanderbilt college experience amazing. And I thank them so much for that. I definitely think that's one of the most important things. In whatever avenue you're studying for, definitely having a friend group to support you, whether they're in that same process or not.

Harjit: I agree with that.

Chloe: Helping someone else can make you feel better, and it's relaxing for me, I know, when I'm helping someone else, because I'm not worrying about my own problems. So I think that's definitely really important.

And the process is different for everybody. Some people are going to have an easy road to med school, or as easy as it can be, and then other people are going to have such a difficult process. So I think it's good to never compare yourself to anyone else. Because at the end of the day, everyone who's in that med school had a different process, but they're all there.

Harjit: I love that.

Chloe: And so I think it's important to remember your path is meant specifically for you, with a huge, great plan for you that that person isn't a part of. And so their path is different than your path.

I think remembering that, to stop comparing myself to other people, is very important, especially at a school like Vanderbilt where usually everyone's getting As, and I'm like, "Wow, how are you guys doing this?"

And then it's definitely easy to feel like you're not smart enough. But if this is what you're passionate about, you have the skills that you need to do it. And reminding yourself that is so important.

Margaux: Chloe, you speak like you're a fourth-year medical student. You're so wise.

Harjit: Just keep on . . .

Chloe: I'm trying to get there. That's the dream.

Harjit: Yes. Just keep on doing that. And I love this last piece of advice you gave. We're all different. We're all unique. And I think that's such a good thing to say. You can never compare yourself with another person.

Margaux: And don't feel . . .

Chloe: Absolutely not.

Margaux: . . . shy about reaching out to us if you need anything at all or encouragement along your way. We're totally rooting for you.

Harjit: Yes.

Chloe: Oh, thank you. I will definitely hit you guys up, asking for help along the way.

Harjit: So, Chloe, thank you so much for being a part of our show. We're so happy that you had such great questions, you had such great wise words. And we will talk to you hopefully soon.

Chloe: Thank you so much for having me. It's been really great.

Margaux: So that was a great conversation with Chloe. And now we have our next caller, Jessica. Hey, Jessica. Are you there?

Jessica: Yes.

Harjit: Okay, great. And you are from New York.

Jessica: Yes, I'm from New York City.

Harjit: Great. Hi, Jessica. How are you?

Jessica: Good. Thank you for having me on. How are you guys?

Harjit: We're good.

Margaux: Yeah, we're good. Thanks for calling in. Jessica, do you want to give us a little bit about yourself and where you are in the application process?

Jessica: Yeah. So I am a nutritionist. I got my undergraduate degree in nutrition science from the University of Georgia, and I'm currently a graduate student at Columbia University, doing my master's in community health education. And I am going to be reapplying to medical school in May of 2018.

So I applied right after I graduated undergrad, which was in 2015, and I didn't get in. It was really hard for me, so I took a break. I focused on work, and then I decided to recently quit to put everything that I have back into it. So that's where my application is. Now, I'm just prepping everything, retaking some chemistry classes, finishing my master's degree, and seeing how it goes from here.

Margaux: It's great that you've already applied, and now, like you said, you're putting everything back into reapplying. And I think, first of all, I applaud you for . . . After being rejected, it's so hard. But the fact that you're doing it again speaks volumes. And so I just want to applaud you on that, first and foremost.

Harjit: I also wanted to add that in, Jessica. Thank you for sharing your story, and also, thank you for showing your courage. I think it takes a lot of courage to go through this process.

Jessica: Yeah, I definitely had a lot of self-doubt, and I dealt with a lot of insecurities within the last couple of years. And that's why I decided to take a seat back and work on myself. And then when I'm really ready, to face, I guess, a fear of mine and just go for it.

Harjit: I think that's kind of the hardest step, really, is facing your fears and really finding that self-esteem in yourself. I also wanted to apply, I think, three years before I actually applied. I wasn't passing one section of my MCAT. I knew if I applied, I would have automatically gotten rejected.

So even though I didn't actually apply, it almost, to me, felt like I was applying every year. It's just that I couldn't get that MCAT score. So I really understand how much courage and strength it takes to pick yourself back up and try again.

But you know what's beautiful is, every year, I noticed I was growing, and that was going to make me an even better student when I started medical school.

Margaux: Yeah, I think that's a really great point, Harjit. I was rejected the first time I applied to medical school, so I know how you felt and how you're feeling, the devastation of, "Am I not good enough for this?" and all the self-doubt that comes with that rejection. But like Harjit said, I grew a little bit each year, too, in learning more about myself to help build my application.

I was rejected a second time and it took a lot of fight and strength to come back and apply again for a third time, but I'm glad I did. And I think I'm glad for the experience of having been rejected once because I learned so much about myself and about learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable and how to identify my weaknesses and make them stronger and focus on those.

And I think that's something that you and I, having been rejected once from medical school, kind of have a leg up on learning. I think a lot of students are learning that in medical school right now. When you fail a test for the first time or you get a really low grade that you've never gotten in your whole life, it's completely devastating. But I think you'll find that you have a lot more power having had this experience.

Harjit: I actually 100% agree with you, Margaux, because I feel like it really humbles you. And when you get there, you'll have this maturity in a certain aspect that maybe some other people won't.

Margaux: And I think that's a very encouraging and very empowering tool to have as you move into medical school.

Harjit: I agree.

Jessica: So I have two questions, and I guess I'll just ask them at the same time to make it easier. But the first one is, how did you get over rejection, especially rejection from medical school? And the second question was, how did you deal with self-doubt and with others who doubted you?

Margaux: Since you and I have kind of had an email exchange about the rejection part, I was going to let Harjit answer your first question. And then I'll answer your second question about self-doubt.

Harjit: So the first question was, "How do you get over rejection?" Actually, I feel like there's never a time you really get over it, because it's just another experience that you've had that you can add to your life story.

But I would say that the main goal is to actually process that rejection, right? And you can't control external factors. You can only control internal factors as people. We can only change things about ourselves, not about what other people have decided for us.

This is how I usually think of rejection. At that time, this institution didn't maybe want me, and so I'm going to try again, and maybe another time would be better for me. And then it also gives me the opportunity, I feel like, to show the institution a little bit more about me. Yeah, they know a little bit about me the first time I got rejected, but I've grown as a person. So showing that again.

I think the way you kind of get over rejection is, one, you need to process it, and then you need to let it go. Keep it in your life story, but don't let it define you. Does that make sense?

So what I mean by that is you just kind of go through it. Feel all the emotions. Don't push it out of your mind's eye, right? You want to think about it, but then just move on. I think that's kind of the whole process. And take all those lessons with you because that next step, you'll just be a stronger and more grown person.

Margaux: Yeah. And some advice for the . . . like Harjit just said, just move on. The way I kind of tackled that was pushing into what I didn't want to hear about myself or maybe thinking deeper about why I was rejected.

Sometimes the hardest thing is to take constructive criticism. But I sought out people who I knew I could trust to give me honest, constructive criticism about my application and about where my faults were. And then I kind of had to swallow that like a bitter pill and push into it and work and focus on my weaknesses, which I think, as humans, we tend to only focus on our positive attributes.

But if you can learn to be . . . My mantra is "be comfortable with being uncomfortable." If you can learn that and just push into that every day, I think it will make you a stronger applicant, a stronger person, a stronger doctor.

Harjit: Margaux, I totally agree with that.

Margaux, do you want to address Jessica's second question?

Margaux: Yeah. Unless you have any comments you want to make on that answer, Jessica.

Jessica: No, I definitely feel like what both of you guys said has a lot of value to it, and unless you actually go through the process of sitting down and reflecting on everything . . . I knew that I messed up in organic chemistry, so my only option was to retake it. And just kind of be like, "It sucks that I had to retake it." That part makes me feel bad, but the fact that the next time I take it, I will make an A, makes me feel better about the whole process overall.

So I definitely understand feeling comfortable with what's uncomfortable and also the part of reflecting and letting it process.

Margaux: Yeah. And then about your question with self-doubt and those who have doubted us, I think many medical students and pre-med students have had an experience with a pre-med advisor telling them no. And this is something I've heard from many of my peers.

At first, I had pretty low GPA and pretty low MCAT scores, and my advisor said, "You're not going to get into medical school." And she told me to think of a different plan. I kind of internally was like, "No." And some fire inside of me was like, "I don't believe you. I don't want to believe you." At the time, I thought she was a really bad advisor for telling me no.

But now, kind of in retrospect, I realize it was a good thing because it kind of ignited that fire and that passion and made me realize that I really did want to do it, even though there were so many things stacked against me, and I wasn't the "perfect applicant."

So I think kind of changing your mindset to people who say no to you, just thinking of it as a challenge, that will only further empower you and ignite your fire and desire to do what you want to do. That would be my first piece of advice to how to handle people who have doubted you.

And then with the self-doubt, I think it comes back to just self-affirmation and constantly telling yourself that you are worth it and that you do deserve it. I think that has really helped me, is just learning how to give myself self-affirmation and then surrounding myself with positive people.

Harjit and Leen and Bushra, the other two "Bundle of Hers" members, they're my grounding factor in medical school. They keep me healthy mentally and emotionally. And so that helps me combat self-doubt when I have a very supportive network.

Harjit: I think that's really important, because even me, when I didn't do well on a test, Margaux, Bushra, and Leen will be like, "Don't worry. It's fine. You'll do great on the final, and that's what counts." Just pushing each other, I think that's important.

I just wanted to add about when people doubt you, I think, Jessica, the important thing to remember is no one knows you better than yourself, and just remembering that and knowing that. If you think you can do it, then you can do it.

I'm a big believer in it's lovely when people support you, but I think knowing that you have that strength within you. And can I say one thing? I think you do because you've been through so much. You just need to find that within you. It's there.

Jessica: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I think that us talking about it more openly brings normalcy to the whole situation. It's so taboo to talk about failure, and it really eats at you, especially . . . I don't know what it's like in medical school, but I do know what it's like when you're pre-med, and it's very cut throat at that stage. And it brings you down even if you have a friend in your class, or maybe a professor says something to you.

So I think getting out of that whole scene and being rejected and all that stuff and having the time to just focus on myself has really given me the clarity that I needed to continue.

Harjit: Also, Jessica, you bring up a really good point. I think everyone in pre-med environment is very competitive. But you know what? I think a lot of people just project out their fears. So they're like, "Oh, we got an A in class and dah-dah-dah-dah." But I think they're just saying that to be like, "No, I'm doing well. I can beat people," or whatever.

But I think, also, realizing that a lot of these people are at a stage where everyone else is saying the same thing, so they feel like they have to say the same thing. It's maybe not the reality. So I think understanding that is really important.

And I love that you bring up that point. Things get competitive, I think, throughout your life. I think we live in a society that competitiveness is kind of ingrained in us. And I think getting away from that and really understanding that competitiveness is good, but within yourself. You're becoming the best version of yourself. Does that make sense?

Jessica: Yeah, for sure, because that's something that . . . When you're reapplying, you take years off, and all of your pre-med friends are going to graduate by the time they're 26, and you're still trying to get in at 26. Then you tend to feel it in that sense. But I think it's not about me catching up with them. It's just me catching up with myself.

Harjit: Right. I think that's perfectly said. Just kind of to wrap up, are there any words of encouragement you have for your peers? You've mentioned a couple of things.

Jessica: Yeah. So I learned a lot in graduate school and also working as a nutritionist. One way to get your patients to change for the better is to constantly affirm them for positive things instead of looking at them or their situation through a deficit point of view. And I think sometimes we forget that we have to do the same thing for ourselves.

What Margaux had emailed me about previously really got me thinking about that. And every day, I'm trying to affirm myself. So it's important to treat yourself the way you would treat your patient, with kindness and care. And affirm yourself every day to remind yourself how great you are, because confidence really is the key to success. The more confident you feel about something, the better you will do. That's something that I had to learn throughout the last couple of years, but I'm glad that I'm grasping the idea now.

Harjit: I love that. Thank you so much for joining us. If you ever need anything, please feel free to reach out. You have our Instagram page.

Margaux: And our emails if you need any . . . want us to read your personal statement or anything, any words of encouragement along your way. We're rooting for you. We really think you deserve to be a doctor.

Harjit: And I hope you remember that we also were in your position, and we've felt that. I think it's hard because you haven't felt the other side, but you will hopefully soon.

Jessica: Thank you so very much. I really appreciate you guys having me on, and I really appreciate all of the lovely things you guys said and the advice that you're giving to not only me but to so many other hopefuls out there. So thank you so much.

Harjit: Thank you.

Margaux: Thank you.

Harjit: It was really nice to hear from Jessica. I think she had some great advice. I think it's important that we have conversations about rejection and failure.

Margaux: And on a last note, we had a question come in from @studyclinic, which isn't necessarily a pre-med question, but a question about medical school and I think we could all relate to, and that is, "I am more curious about how to get out of medical school. I feel like I have spent a lifetime here."

And I think it's relatable because whether you're in the pre-med process, taking the MCAT, filling out an application, in medical school, prepping for boards, or doing your rotations, you feel like it's a long haul.

Harjit: The thing is persistence is key, and honestly, it just feels long, but hopefully, we get to have fun with our friends and do what we love every day.

Margaux: Yes. I think there's light at the end of the tunnel. It's been encouraging talking to both Jessica and Chloe, and I think that we've got some great listeners. And we hope that if you haven't checked out our Instagram, @bundleofhers, you will. Drop us a message if you have any questions or want some advice.

Harjit: We're there for you. Thank you for listening.

Margaux: That was great popcorning.

Harjit: You said it. I couldn't say something. Just stay with me.

Margaux: Go with it.

Harjit: You guys are laughing.

Margaux: Yeah, because it so out of the blue.