S5E12: Exploring Your Sexuality, Unapologetically

Harjit: What did you guys do today?

Mariam: I went to the dentist because I'm an adult and I got fluoride.

Harjit: Yay. Do you feel so adult-y?

Mariam: My teeth are so white and I know they'll only be that way for like two days before I start chugging coffee again, so I'm going to live it up.

Harjit: It's all about the comeback. That's what I say.

Mariam: This is a PSA for everyone to go to the dentist.

Harjit: Gum disease is bad for your health.

Mariam: It is real.

Harjit: Hi, everyone. This is Harjit. Welcome to "Bundle Of Hers." Today in the virtual studio, we have Lina and Mariam. Hello.

Lina: Hi.

Mariam: Hi.

Harjit: I love that. You guys should both say hi together all the time. It's the roomies magic. Did you all know that Mariam and Lina are roommates?

Mariam: Yeah, fun fact. And also sometimes, when we sing together, we harmonize just naturally.

Lina: Really well.

Mariam: So pretty much the longer we live together, the more in sync we become, which is very cool.

Harjit: I'm a Lina and Mariam fan. So with that, I am really excited about this episode that we're going to do. I just wanted to say that we will be bringing up themes of sexual trauma and abuse, so just want to give a trigger warning for our listeners in case that is not supportive in your journey. Those are the kind of contents we're going to be talking about.

The reason why this topic is so important to me and something I really talked to Lina and Mariam a lot about is how our sexuality or the sexualization of people who present as women, how that impacts our life stories. And I think it's a really, really big part of our life stories for people who both have been overtly sexualized or not been overtly sexualized growing up.

I think it really impacts any anybody, especially people that present as women or fem or other identities that I haven't included as well. But I thought this would be a great conversation for us to open up to our listeners.

It matters in medicine, and we'll get to that a little bit later, but I guess I just kind of wanted to start out with our stories. And I think a really important question or a pivotal question that really got me to start thinking about this is when did you know you were a sexual being?

Lina: I guess for me, and this is me trying to remember how, it was from a very young age and how young I was. But I remember the concept that was very common for people to bring up or for the community to bring up is like, "Oh, you you're going to be a beautiful bride." And this was at age 8, 9, 10 years old. "Your husband is going to be very happy. You're very pretty." And it was always just about those topics.

At the time, just with everyone around, if someone is calling you pretty, you kind of enjoy the compliments. And I guess we don't really understand what's going on, but growing up I realized there was a lot of emphasis on only that. And with that comes the concept of virginity and the concept of saving yourself and how important you are and that importance comes from that sex part of yourself.

And that also came up with wanting to go into medicine. There would be some questions about, "Think about your husband and your kids. Your life is not going to really match up for that," as it seemed like that was the only goal. And I think that's kind of what made me realize that my importance is about that.

Harjit: Yeah. I'm really grateful that you shared that, Lina, because I feel like I had a very similar experience. I have mentioned in this podcast before in prior episodes, the first thing that I knew about myself was that I was a girl. And what was always tied to that is kind of my function in society, which was to reproduce.

And a lot of this came through kind of being marriageable or "What qualities do you have to be marriageable?" And a lot of them tied to my physical appearance or the way I acted or the way I talked, which was all tied to my sexuality.

I remember thinking that sexuality was kind of like this prize, right? When you're younger, it needs to be hidden. Do two braids, don't put makeup on, don't need anybody's eyes on you because that prize could be taken away. And then when you're older, all of a sudden you have to make this 180-degree and all of a sudden have to really attract these people so you get a good match.

I just remember thinking about it very much in a confusing way, because I was like, "This is interesting. I'm supposed to hide this for years and then all of a sudden I'm supposed to discover it."

It was really something that impacted me a lot because I didn't know what my own thoughts were about my sexuality. I was never allowed the opportunity to really feel and reflect on it and see where it could go because its only function was for me to get married and it was a prize that would be passed on to my husband. And in that sense, it seemed much of an objectification or like "women are property."

Mariam: Something that I thought about was also after I kind of passed that childhood phase, and especially after I moved out of my home and all those pressures. One thing I realized in this exploration through sexuality is that living in this Western world, I think a lot of it was also there's a lot of pressure for us to also be appealing to the white standard and the white norm.

And I mean by that is the way that I thought about my sexuality was very much rooted in how I thought about myself as a woman of color. Something that I often got a lot, always came from men, was, "Wow, you look so exotic." I think that term carries some interesting connotation.

Harjit: So much history.

Mariam: Yeah, so many connotations. As somebody who . . . I think I was around 18 years old. That was when I went to college. I started kind of doing more things outside of the home. I moved out. So this was kind of the time that I was interacting more with my peers. I was going out more, doing things like that.

That was a compliment that . . . I say compliment. What I really mean is compliment in quotations, right? But it was a comment that I would get a lot. And I think from that fairly young age, a part of how I viewed my sexuality was a way to appeal to this white standard in a very heteronormative way.

And it was a really interesting thing to kind of unlearn, because when I was 18, I was kind of young and dumb and I took any compliment that I could get. I was like, "Oh, exotic. This person is trying to be nice." But I think when you really become critical of that term, what is the racist and sexist and colonialist implications of that term? How does that shape how we relate to our own sexuality? And that's something that I think I've been kind of pondering about a lot in this conversation about sexuality as it pertains to me specifically as a brown woman.

Harjit: I think a lot of the times we have this, right? We're sexual beings, and then having to utilize that in ways that maybe we don't want because that's what is taught for us to do. Use it in a way that doesn't feel right for us or we don't really again have the opportunity to discover and really use.

Every time that I think about my sexuality, a common emotion that always comes up is guilt and shame. Even when we decided to do this episode, I remember thinking that I could never, ever talk about this even a year ago. I feel like right now I'm in a place in my life where I am proud of the thoughts that I have and the emotions I feel, but I've not always been like that.

That's something that we all connected on, was the shame and guilt that comes around talking about sexuality and discovering sexuality and really playing with our own sexuality.

Why do these emotions come up and where do you all feel like they fit into this topic, especially for you and your lives?

Lina: I think a lot of it comes from the pressure from society and from the culture of what perfect is and what good is. Women all around us are extremely sexualized and extremely objectified. There's this constant pressure that you need to look a certain way, you need to be a certain weight, have a certain skin complexion, and don't do this or don't do that. You want to stay at the perfect level.

And with a lot of that comes a lot of that pressure to . . . "If you're not perfect, this is the bad stuff that you're going to be or this is what you are and it turns you into this bad thing," and suddenly all these bad words are attributed to you.

And I think with that comes a lot of shame and guilt, even to the point that even when we understand, "That's not me. That's not the only thing that defines me, or just because I did this or I'm like this does not mean I'm bad or I should feel guilt or I should feel shame," it's still so implemented in our society that we still question ourselves.

And we're constantly struggling to get out of that thought and be like, "Wait, am I doing something wrong? Wait, maybe I should fix my image, or fix my weight, or be more presentable in a sense."

For me, at least, it's a daily struggle. That shame and guilt comes from me thinking, "Oh, I'm not good enough."

Harjit: It's a lose-lose situation, right? Not even a win-win situation. It's a lose-lose situation. People put that on us, right?

Lina: Exactly.

Harjit: They're the ones who sexualize us, and then all of a sudden, we're bad if we have all these thoughts. You can never make other people happy, and this just reminds me of that concept.

This is where I think a lot of my shame and guilt come from. Sexuality is this prize or this hidden gem or something of that sort. And I say hidden gem, although people make it sound much worse than that.

It's like this possession basically, and any loss of that being shamed to the family because it's an honor. And if that's shame, then it turns into guilt. And then you feel guilty, and then you feel shame, and then you are taken away from ever exploring these feelings or having a lot of self-hatred towards yourself if you do explore these feelings, right? These are the things that I feel like come up a lot.

Mariam: Yeah, I think a lot of those themes of shame and guilt also kind of tie into a history of trauma. And I think specifically talking about . . . unfortunately, sexual violence is something that's widespread worldwide. People from across all genders will experience some form of sexual violence. And that's also a really important thing to talk about in this conversation.

When we're feeling shame and guilt, there is one aspect of the conversation that you both touched on perfectly. There are all these societal pressures. A lot of it is very gendered. A lot of it is about the sexualization of women and these expectations, but also this double standard. And then also factoring into the conversation a lot of people experience sexual trauma. What do we do with that?

At least for me, the goal is to relate to your sexuality in a way that's healthy and positive, feels fulfilling and empowering and hopefully full of love, but it's not always that easy. It's not always that simple, and a part of that is society and another part of that is also personal trauma.

Harjit: Yeah. I'm really grateful you bring that up, Mariam, because when I was thinking about where my thoughts of shame and guilt come from, it's from that trauma. Again, trigger warning, I'm going to talk about some sexual trauma here.

I remember when I was younger, I was touched inappropriately by one of my relatives. I had this feeling that this person loved me so much that this was coming out of love or born out of love. And then realizing that I was just an object for their pleasure was something very difficult for me. Then I grew up thinking, "Oh, I can never tell anybody the story, because this is shameful. I must have done something wrong when I was a child."

My body was just my body and I thought I was being loved, but I wasn't being loved. I was being abused. And I think that it's these things that really tainted my view of feeling that shame and guilt.

Gosh, this topic is so deeply ingrained in my mind because I even remember thinking, "I have to look a certain way. People are always commenting on my body, how long my hair is, how I look." It's everybody. It's everybody from my little cousin to my grandmother. Everyone is making a comment.

And then I also turn on the TV and then people are making comments, right? Like, "You should look a certain way. You should act a certain way." Then you go to school and women are getting punished, or girls, let me just say that, are getting punished for the clothes that they're wearing.

These are the things that really, I think, tie shame and guilt so tightly together, but also make this topic really difficult to talk about.

What ends up happening is when there is shame and guilt involved, we begin to have more self-hatred towards ourselves, and we aren't able to practice self-love and explore our sexuality in the form of love, which then continues the cycle of trauma and abuse.

And these are the things that I always think of when the words shame and guilt come up, because they always come up when I think about sexuality.

Mariam: Harjit, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for being vulnerable with us. That was really powerful. When you were talking, it kind of reminded me of . . . I used to work at the rape recovery center in Salt Lake. I've told you both about my job there. And we did a lot of outreach in the high schools.

And that job was very difficult for a lot of reasons. We interacted with a lot of people who had experienced sexual abuse. I think jobs like that, you start to really realize how widespread sexual abuse is.

But something that I absolutely loved about that job was when I got to interact with high schoolers and go talk to them about consent and healthy relationships. We would talk about, "Okay, what is your idea of consent?" And people would bring up real-life examples of like, "Oh, my partner told me that they want to look through my phone and that's a healthy part of a normal relationship."

And instead of prescribing a good or bad behavior as it pertains to consent or boundaries, we just talked about it. "How does that make you feel?" And the whole idea of those conversations was for people to feel more connected to how they were feeling and feel more connected in their body.

In high school, in my opinion, and I think most people would probably agree with me, I think high school . . . I'm not saying it's too late to have that conversation, but the conversation about consent, about boundaries, should happen starting from day one really.

Lina: Agreed.

Mariam: And I think we come from a generation where that wasn't really normalized. I would argue it's not very normalized now. It's something that people are talking about a little bit more in their parenting, but not everybody has the access to the resources and the awareness really, because it's a lot of unlearning.

But I really enjoyed those conversations with those kids because I kind of saw them process through a lot of, "Oh, you know what? I didn't love when my partner did this. I'm going to tell them about it, or I'm going to advocate for myself." And it's not always that simple, but I think that level of awareness is so crucial.

And if I think about where I was when I was in high school, I didn't think that I had that level of autonomy. Again, we've ingrained, just like you both talked about, that I first of all shouldn't take up space, especially when it comes to my sexuality because it should be hidden. When I do show my sexuality, it's to appease somebody else. It's not for me.

And I think this is something we've all talked about and we're all still trying to unlearn, but I really want to emphasize the power that is involved with you taking that autonomy back, because at the end of the day, sexual abuse is all about power and control. It's not about sexual fulfillment.

And so that was something that felt really good for me to be able to at least share space with when we were talking to those high schoolers, to be like, "How can you feel like you're getting your power back when you feel like somebody's trying to take that away from you? How can you set a boundary?"

Harjit: It's so powerful that you say that because I think it ties into where did that shift happen where we are even able to have this conversation together today? I'm pretty sure a year ago, I'd be very uncomfortable having this conversation on this podcast.

But I think that shift began when I discovered that my sexuality isn't a property. It's a part of my identity. It's who I am. It's a part of me and I have the right to discover it just like I have the right to discover all other parts of my identity, right? What does it mean for me to be Punjabi? What does it mean to me be a woman? What does it mean to me to be a sexual being?

This is a part of who I am, and I think that's what really gave me power. And a lot of it is about this control of power and power dynamics, which, again, I want to further talk about, especially in this Western world. But it's all about these dynamics, and I think that's where things really shifted for me.

I now don't feel shame when I'm a sexual being, because I'm able to talk to my communities, which the two of you are a part of that. And also, I feel so much power in exercising my identity the way that I want to exercise it, and I think that's what's beautiful.

Lina: I think for me, and I think it can apply to a lot of people, is it comes from the awareness, Mariam, like you mentioned, the awareness of how important it is for you to recognize your sexuality, to recognize your power in that, and to recognize what you want and what you don't want. What's okay for you and what's not okay for you?

It comes also with the power of the autonomy, like you deciding that for yourself. It gives you a lot of strength and confidence into, "You know what? This is not okay. This is what I want. I'm going to speak up for myself."

And also, the support from our communities. Harjit, like you said, that's all of us together. We talk about this stuff. We know we're supported. We know we're not alone in this. And honestly, none of us should be alone in this. We all have each other either way.

For me, when talking with you guys and recognizing all of those things that I mentioned, it really helped me kind of step away from the shame and guilt and step away from feeling bad about what I talk about, about what I do, about anything that pertains to my sexual identity, and that's okay.

I mean, we still struggle, but I have you guys to remind me that, "No, I am powerful, and what I decide to do is part of myself and it's beautiful, honestly."

And I think the unfortunate reality is a lot of people don't have that, or even as adults, we are unaware that we have that. I mean, Harjit, you mentioned just last year, and for me too, it's still a very new thing for me.

Mariam: I think in shifting that mindset comes a lot of healing. And just bringing it back to that piece about not feeling that level of autonomy, having been through some level of trauma, I think healing is kind of a lifelong process.

I don't think there was ever any definitive shift in my adult life of, "Oh, wow, I figured this out." I feel like it's just a lifelong process. I think I'm still learning and unlearning a lot of the things.

It's so interesting too. I talked about those workshops that I had with the high schoolers. I got a lot out of those workshops too. I mean, I wasn't just going in there and teaching, "What is the definition of consent? What is this?" I learned a lot from those high schoolers, because it was really interesting to hear how they thought about relationships, how they thought about how they set their boundaries.

It shaped a lot of my own personal life, me reflecting on who I was as a teenager versus how I do that now in my own romantic relationships, or even just generally in my relationships, right? I think this conversation can really expand into all relationships.

But specifically as it pertains to sexuality, one thing that I keep reminding myself through this process is to be very kind and compassionate to myself. It almost seems like when we talk about sexuality especially, and I'm just going to be candid, as women of color, it almost seems like the world is against us.

Harjit: Yeah.

Lina: For sure.

Mariam: And I think we're kind of fighting against a very misogynistic, very abusive system. And so, at the core of how I think about my sexuality, I want it to be full of forgiveness and self-compassion.

Lina: Yeah. And with what you're saying, Mariam, I think it's okay to be where we are even if it was where we were a year ago or where when we were in high school. I think, like you mentioned, we have to give ourselves grace and accept where we are and where our journey is through that and not push ourselves.

I think in addition to kind of all the things that are against us in finding that strength and power and autonomy, there's also a lot of push when it comes from sexual liberation. There's also a lot of push to be a certain way, like very free and not care and give your all. And that comes with a part of white feminism.

And it's just like, "That does not apply to everyone." And that just ignores the intersectionality of our identities. I mean, the struggle that we as women of color face, it's not that easy and I think we need to give ourselves grace of where we are and where our journey is, and just really go back to our identity and what we are okay with and not what the assumptions of how you should and shouldn't be.

Mariam: Lina, I'm really glad that you brought that up because it is really, really hard. It is incredibly difficult to find a way to reclaim your sexuality on the other side of it too, right?

When I was in college, that's kind of when I was learning about feminism. And a lot of people in my class were so open about their sexuality, which was great. Sex positivity all the way. We love to see it. But something that I noticed was I felt this pressure to show up in the same way, but I couldn't necessarily relate to my sexuality the same way.

I think, for me, the journey was different. I consider myself a very sex-positive person. I mean, Harjit and Lina, I talk to them about sex all the time. I think it's a really important conversation, but oftentimes I think a lot of the mainstream feminist narrative is about being very open and out and proud and all these things, which is, again, not necessarily a bad thing.

But when you factor in consideration of trauma and how it intersects with our identities as people of color or how it can intersect with other people's identities through gender, through socioeconomic status, through a lot of different identities, it's important to consider that there are multiple ways to feel empowered in your sexuality.

Lina: Also with safety, let's be real.

Mariam: Oh my gosh.

Lina: It's not as safe for everyone. We need to also consider that. And like you said, Mariam, it's important to recognize that there are multiple ways for you to have your sexual liberation as long as you are in control of that and you are aware of what is best for you, and that's okay.

Harjit: Not only are we talking about sexuality, but we all identify as brown women as well, women of color, and kind of understanding those intersections and how sexual liberation can look different for every single person across identities, ethnicities across individuals, right?

Sexual liberation doesn't need to mean the same thing for every single person, or it doesn't need to appeal to the way that you think people should be liberated. It really is something organic that is to ourselves.

And that's, again, showing the power that sexuality can have when it's you who is actually doing . . . You're your own agency is what I'm trying to say. I think it's really important.

One thing that really came up when you guys were both talking about this is a lot of the times when I'm talking about my sexuality, I've mentioned a lot of how I grew up and my background, but I want to specifically make a note. It's not only my culture that struggles with this concept of sexuality and women's sexuality. It's literally the whole entire world.

And also, I want to acknowledge that where I'm from, I'm particularly from a state in India called Punjab. India in general was colonized, and the way that sexuality and the way we talked about it changed once we were colonized.

It's not that it's this thing that only happens in our culture, but it's that whole white supremacist and capitalistic view that women are property. And that's where I think it's really important to put into the conversation this very particular point, because I want people not to take away, "Oh, these are brown women. They can't talk about their sexuality." This is something that is a part of these systems that we're all fighting against, right?

And I also want to acknowledge that the people that carry the most brunt of this, as in every other thing, is black women, the way they're sexualized and the way their bodies are used and the way their bodies are portrayed.

These are the thoughts that we should all be thinking about, and I just wanted to make sure I acknowledge and honor that this isn't just a part of one or another culture. It's a part of the entire world and specifically even America.

Lina: You said it perfectly.

Harjit: Well, I think I want to bring it back to "Bundle Of Hers," bring it back to medicine. How does this topic have anything to do with medicine? And I would say it has everything to do with medicine.

Mariam: First of all, for myself, throughout this process, my sexuality, at least for me, is a huge part of my wellbeing. And so that's something that I'm always going to think about. They always tell us in medical school, "Take care of yourselves. Make sure you're eating right and exercising and sleeping eight hours a day," which is very unrealistic but whatever.

A huge part of that self-care routine for me involves fulfilling my sexuality, involves sex. And so I think as somebody who's in a very demanding field, I want to acknowledge that this is a huge part of who I am. It's something that I'm investing in personally as a provider.

And I think, having said that, it helps me recognize and understand my patients better who have been through sexual trauma.

It's an important thing to be able to understand for your patients to provide trauma-informed care. Not enough physicians, in my opinion, are trained in trauma-informed care. Not a lot of people really understand what that means. And so I think that's a really important part of this conversation as well.

As future physicians, we're going to realize the impact that sexual trauma has on our future patients and the importance of sexuality for our future patients and their health and their wellbeing. And so that's something that I hope people take away from this conversation.

Harjit: Yeah. Mariam, I will go off of that. Not only our patients, but this also impacts all of us in the workforce, right? There's a lot of power play that goes on in the workforce. I've talked to other women residents of mine who have been unfortunately sexualized, and because of this power play, that's a huge part of the conversation. This is why it matters.

All of these things tie into medicine, and that is why I think it's so important that we all are very aware of how sexuality is a huge part of everybody's life. It's an identifying part of everybody's life, and also it's utilized in ways that are oppressive. And that's something we should all be aware of.

Lina: Yeah, Harjit. And continuing to ignore it or not talk about it is really what enforces the oppressive tactics and the shame and the guilt. And so we have to realize that it is natural. It is a part of our identity, it is a part of us, and it is something that should be as commonly talked about as everything else we talk about in medicine and we talk about with our patients. It is a part of them and it is a part of us, and we have to really identify how much it affects us.

Harjit: So when I was 23, I think it was my . . . I think I was 23. Who knows? I was in my last year of bioengineering, and I took this Remixing Hip-Hop and Feminism course. And I actually wrote this spoken word with a friend of mine who's also Punjabi.

I'm not going to read the whole thing, but there was one particular part. It's called "Rearrangement." And I was thinking a lot about arranged marriage during this time and how sexuality is a part of that. So I'm just going to read one part of it because it is a pretty long poem, but this is basically a little bit more thoughts. Again, trigger warning.

"My family tells me you do not get everything you want in a man. Do not expect too much, but you have to be everything. Otherwise, you are not going to get anything.

"My marriage is an arrangement, an arrangement of money, status, and skills, an arrangement of the color of my skin, the curl in my hair, the flutter in my eye, the size of my bra, an arrangement of children, arrangement of my submission, an arrangement of my rape and an arrangement of my worth.

"My family messed up the arrangement. The arrangement made by institutions to control our love. Love is powerful and I feel it with many people in many ways. I feel the wounds every day, the choices are made, I am a lover. I began to rearrange the arrangement. With love, from Harjit."

So that is the poem. I want to say it's about love, but it's also about sexuality, which I can say now. But at that time, because I couldn't even really talk about sexuality, I feel like I wasn't able to say those things.

So I hope that you all enjoyed this topic, and please continue exploring yourself and having fun, chilling out. This is fun stuff, and we should have fun with it.

Mariam: We're chill. We're chill. We cool.

Harjit: Yeah. Please, please, please follow us on @bundleofhers on Instagram. Also have bundleofhers.com. You can listen to us on all platforms. Anybody want to say bye? I guess I should say bye. Okay. Bye, everybody.

Mariam: Bye.

Lina: Bye.