S5E23: Healing Intergenerational Trauma

Lina: Today was really stressful.

Mariam: Today was a day. There are sometimes when days like this happen, and at the end of the day, you're like, "What just happened?" Everything that could go wrong went wrong.

Lina: But we're here. We made it.

Mariam: But we're here and that's all that matters. We are here in the virtual studio and that is all that matters. Second time is the best time.

Okay. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to "Bundle of Hers." This is Mariam in the virtual studio with none other than Lina.

Lina: Hi.

Mariam: We have a very special . . . well, every episode is very special, but today is a very special episode because it's just me and Lina, which FYI, fun fact, I think we've talked about this, but Lina and I are roommates. So we're going to have a roomie episode.

And today, we're going to be talking about a very important topic that I think has gained a lot of popularity within our generation. Specifically, we're going to be talking about generational trauma and why it's an important conversation to have and how it relates to healthcare.

So before we jump in, I think even though this topic has been something that at least I think we've heard a lot more in our generation . . . Lina, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's this hot topic. I know that sometimes it can be confusing to just jump into a topic without really defining what we're talking about.

So when we're talking about generational trauma or intergenerational trauma, we're specifically talking about this concept that was developed in recent years to help explain years of generational challenges that happen within families. And more specifically, it's the passing on or sending down to younger generations of oppressive or traumatic effects of historical events within families.

And something that I thought was really interesting was this podcast, there's a huge focus on identity. And especially when we joined this podcast, we talk a lot about our identity.

Something that I started to notice is how our identity gets shaped. At least in my personal experience, how I've shaped my identity, a lot of it goes back to how I was raised, how I interacted with my family, and those specific things.

And so that's why I think when we talk about generational trauma or just how different historical events have impacted different generations, our ancestors, and how that impacts who we are fundamentally, I think it's an important conversation to be had.

Speaking of family, I wanted to start with our families. And I know we talk a lot about our backgrounds, but can you tell us a little bit more about your background? Just specifically, where you come from.

Lina: Yeah. So I grew up in Gaza, Palestine, or the Gaza Strip. I lived there until I was 18. A big part of living there is not knowing if you're going to make it out alive.

We came here continuously to live here, me and my family, in 2013. And it seemed at the beginning . . . I feel like when we came here, a lot of it was, "Oh, we're in a better place now. We are good. We're not living under the same situation that we were living on before." Yet somehow a lot of things still affected me. There was a lot of anger. There was a lot of guilt. There were a lot of these feelings that aren't easy to let go of, or these experiences even aren't easy to let go of.

It took me a while to realize that is part of just what I lived through and how it's still within me, if that makes sense. And it's not something as easy as, "Oh, okay, it's gone, then that's gone." It's something that continues to impact me daily, even to this day.

And I've seen it in other people, whether they've experienced the same thing as me where they came here to the U.S. at my age or lived a significant portion of their life back home, or have just lived their whole life here as first-generation Americans and their family immigrated here. It's very similar. It's very similar in how we talk to each other and the experiences that bring us together and how we find healing or who understands that.

I mean, it's how me and you got along so well. You get me. "I get you, girl." But we have those shared experiences, even though our experiences are not the same.

Mariam: Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit more about our relationship because I think it's so unique. I think when I first met Lina, right off the bat, we started talking about our families. That was one of the first things that we connected on, just our family dynamics.

I was born in the States. I talk about that a lot. I was born in the south in Georgia, but my parents . . . My dad is from Iran. My mom is from Afghanistan. And we were more specifically talking about our family dynamics and how similar our experiences were, how we were raised by our parents.

And something that I started to think critically about when I started having these deep conversations with Lina was how vastly different the way we were raised was than a lot of my peers that I grew up with here, especially in Georgia, who didn't have a similar background.

And it had me thinking about how a lot of the traumas that our parents, our family members, our ancestors have experienced, how that informs our everyday lived experiences.

What was so special, I think, Lina, about our relationship is I was never really forced to think about generational trauma in my family until we met, Lina, you and I. Even though I've never experienced war firsthand, but you and I both have family members who, including yourself, have experienced war firsthand. War is a trauma, and how that directly impacted how we were raised.

And so this was the first time that I was really thinking about how trauma can impact not just us and our direct family members, but how it can impact many generations before us.

Lina, I love when you talk about the Palestinian experience because it's obviously something incredibly personal to you and it's a beautiful, wonderful culture. But it's also a culture that's been under attack for the longest time in so many different ways. And I think that that definitely impacts how you were raised.

Lina: When I think about the Palestinian experience, I think about things that whenever you meet a Palestinian, they will bring up. There's a lot of anger for sure because of the many, many years that we've lived under occupation or attacks or injustice. I think about that life may not be good for a very long time. And that's just how we are right now, and that's the world we live in.

But I also think about the strength of our community and how every time I meet a Palestinian, I know we've been through things, I know that you've lived through things, and I know that we're persistent and that we are strong and that we are able to get through this together.

We're able to communicate and heal together as a community, but it's hard and it's going to be hard. So it's appreciating sometimes the little things, the things that we can appreciate or the things that we can love.

So we go hard for our celebrations. We go hard for loving the land. Every time me and you have been around a beach area, my heart has just flown because I feel like my soul is attached to the sea.

Mariam: I remember when we took our first vacation together, when we went to San Diego last year. We hadn't been to the beach in so long. This was our fun beach trip after we finished school. We got to the beach and it was like 7:00, 8:00. No, it was probably later. It was dark outside. We go by the beach, we sit in the sand, and I just remember turning to Lina and she's crying. At first, I was, "Are you okay?" But after a while, I started to understand it's about that connection that you were talking about to the land.

And she was telling me, "This reminds me of Gaza. This reminds me of home." And I think it was in that moment that I really started to understand Lina's experience not just as a Palestinian who she is, but also how she was raised and what was passed down onto her, and how powerful that is, and how beautiful it was to share that moment with her because I felt a lot more connected to her in that.

It also just reminds me, if I can speak a little bit more about my personal experience, my whole life has been here, but I often feel like there's always this tie to the backgrounds that I have, despite not really having that geographic presence that I really wanted to have growing up.

I never got to go back to Iran. I never got to go to Afghanistan, and really be immersed in that culture with my people there. But the ways that we were raised were so unique, I think, in centering those experiences.

And I love that you mentioned the love and the resilience that come out of how we're raised and part of who we are, especially if you come from a community that has been through a lot of oppression, through war, a lot of hardship.

But something that I distinctly remember growing up was I was probably 7 or 8 years old and my mother . . . I don't think she always knew how to talk about Afghanistan because as a refugee, it's hard to live your whole life somewhere and then have it completely ripped away from you and start a new life, and then have kids and talk to them about it. I think that was the case for her.

So the way that she best knew how to explain Afghanistan to us was by having us watch the news. At that time, when I was 7 or so, that's when Afghanistan was in the news a lot because of war, because of the Taliban, because of all these very messed-up things happening.

Quickly, the framework became, "This is who you are. This is the sad stuff that's happening to your people." And that's the only way my mom knew how to talk about Afghanistan, and I think that framed how she raised us and all the values that we had.

When I think, Lina, both of our parents, and of course, including you, were ripped away from their homelands, it impacts how we grow up and the values that they instill in us. And while a lot of that is resilience and while a lot of it is love, a lot of it is coping through trauma.

And so when I think back about my own mother and I think about what her experiences must have been and how difficult it is to speak about those things, I think about the barriers between her and my relationship.

So there are a lot of things that go into this conversation, and I'm starting to realize that there are a lot of things that we inherit from our parents' experiences and their parents' experiences and so on and so forth.

Lina: When you talk about your mom, what she's able to say or not say, I think for a very long time, and even to this day, there are a lot of things I can't talk about. There are a lot of things I feel I can't share, like survivor's guilt in a way.

We had the opportunity to get out. We are not living the same wars anymore. We are not stuck there anymore. Why should I share something or talk about it when I'm not even going through it anymore?

And I feel I've met a lot of people from backgrounds of oppression. We feel we don't deserve to talk about because we're not there, because we're not having those feelings, because we shouldn't be that voice in a sense.

Mariam: Yeah. I really like that you mentioned the survivor's guilt piece. I think it's an example of how detached people from our generation feel from our parents' generation.

I think with my mom and our relationship specifically is where I think about these things the most, and especially as generational trauma manifests in my family, my mom having been through what she went through with her siblings and everything, and how there's such a disconnect in a way between her and my experience.

We're very, very fortunate that when she moved here, she was able to seek out support and resources. And so we became very fortunate later on. I always had what I needed growing up. And for that, I'm forever grateful for my mother for ensuring that for me. When my mom came here, she didn't have all those resources. She didn't have the support that she needed to make it here.

And I think sometimes growing up, the way that our relationship was, was very much her being in that survival mindset. "Oh, we can't spend money on this because we don't have the money." Or her just kind of reacting out of a lot of fears. And I just thought that was part of having a Middle Eastern mom, to be honest.

Lina: Maybe. Maybe some of it.

Mariam: Maybe some of it, honestly. But I think when I started to become more critical of her life and the experiences she went through, it became a little bit more apparent where it was coming from.

I think when you were talking about survivor's guilt specifically, I remember feeling . . . When you're young, you care about the most trivial things, especially if you're like me and you were very fortunate.

If I was having a bad day at school, or if I was having a really bad day in general, or something trivial happened in my life, my mom would always respond in a really interesting way. And she'd be, "Okay, but [bachem 00:13:08] . . ." Bachem means my child. "Bachem, you're going to be okay. There are children in Afghanistan that are dying." And I think probably a lot of immigrant parents will say that to their kids, especially when their kids are being ungrateful.

Lina: Yeah. I feel like that comes from their guilt as well.

Mariam: That's what I was getting at. They came here, they created this life for us, but they feel disconnected too from their people, from their homeland. And so there's a lot of guilt that goes into this too, and especially how we're raised.

Survivor's guilt is such a real thing because every time I bring up Afghanistan with my mom now, now that I'm older and now that I understand her a little bit better, it's still a hard conversation. I feel there's a lot of, "Okay, Mariam, you don't understand this. You didn't go through it."

I think that creates that barrier between me and my mom in terms of that experience. It's just something that we typically don't think about when we think about generational trauma.

I always try to picture how my life would've been different if my mom hadn't gone through what she went through, or if my dad, or anybody in my family really that had to immigrate over here. And it's very hard for me to envision, to be honest.

When we talk about identity, Lina, you know that I love talking about my identity, but I think the reason that I'm more outspoken about it is because I felt when I was younger, my parents didn't know how to talk about it. And so as I got older and felt more comfortable in my identity, I was very unapologetic about it. I was like, "I want this," and I felt so disconnected from it. And I think a lot of that was because of how my parents experienced what they experienced back home.

Lina: I feel like a lot of that trauma with being disconnected when either we first came here or when your parents first came here, there was a lot of stigma and there were a lot of bad stereotypes. There still is, but right now, it is a little bit better for us to be connected to our identity and to be unapologetic about it. But I feel like there's a lot of trauma that was with coming here and then also with the people here.

And our parents didn't have that community. They didn't have their families. They didn't have the life that they got used to, or at one point, the life that they were able to tolerate and heal, because now they're in such a different place or even just a different mindset, and it's hard to connect there. It's hard to find a place to heal or to be okay, I think. And then in addition to the guilt and to just feeling like nothing is changing, I mean, I feel that all the time.

Mariam: Just as you were talking, I was thinking about how this conversation impacts how we talk about mental health in our families too. I think this is a perfect example of how trauma that impacts certain generations manifests itself differently, and especially how we support each other through mental health, or even seek out access to resources and things like that.

I'm a big proponent of people seeking out mental health support. Obviously, that's a very good thing that I feel in our generation, especially, it's become this thing that's been a bit more normalized than the generation prior.

But then when you factor in coming from an immigrant background, it's interesting the ways that our parents and the generation before had to cope with their trauma.

Maybe a few years ago, if I was thinking about it with my mom's generation, I would say something along the lines of, "That generation didn't deal with their trauma, but we're the cool woke generation and we know to go to therapy." Take that with a grain of salt, whatever.

But I think as I've thought about it a little bit more, you mentioned our parents didn't have access to certain resources. My mom, I don't think she fully understands the concept of therapy. Not because it's not an easy concept to understand, but because that's just not something that existed in Afghanistan because that's just not how Afghans heal.

We're a very communal people. If she was dealing with something really difficult, the ways that they cope with trauma . . . And I'm sure this is the same way with Palestinians too, because we've talked about this Lina and other communities historically that have been through war, who have been oppressed, the ways that we heal is with community. It's communal.

But when you take the experience of being taken away from your homeland, you're in this diaspora, it's hard for people to feel they can connect and it's hard to have that healing component.

It's just interesting how it's such a different experience. The healing process is such a different experience for each generation. And I think that's where some of the miscommunication lies when we're talking about healing through that generational trauma, because every time I talk to my older family members, they just see my life as drastically different. They see my barriers as drastically different, which they are, but it's just that disconnect that can feel really, really difficult in this conversation.

Lina: Yeah. And I feel like already we can feel very isolated because of the difference in our experiences in general, even when it doesn't have to do with war or trauma. But generally, people do feel isolated in their experience.

When something happens to us or when we're experiencing things, it feels like we're alone in it. It feels like no one else can understand us. No one else can relate to us. And we feel alone and we tend to deal with it on our own because there's this mindset that you have to be strong and we have to deal with it on our own.

And I feel that just exacerbates that disconnect and we end up not talking to each other, not realizing that we have the support, the community, not realizing that this is something that could really, really help us.

I've seen it personally in myself. Yes, I am 100% behind individual therapy and that can help me realize things, whether they trigger me or make me sad or things that will stress me out. And that's all great, but the other thing I need is my community and my support to know that I am not the only one struggling. I'm not here by myself. I can rely on you guys.

Yeah, so a big part of it is kind of community and healing together. Like I said, the thing that stops it is we all think that we're doing things on our own.

Mariam: One hundred percent. And also, when you're in America, I think overwhelmingly when you're pursuing the American dream, it's very much an emphasis on individualism. And I'm speaking from personal family experience. That individual success, the standard immigrant story of have your kid, start new, forget the past, and have your kids completely disconnected from your past. Hopefully, they'll make it here.

And it's just such an interesting way to cope because when you're young, you're like, "Yeah, that's exactly how I want to approach this. I want to make it here and I want to be successful and I want to leave all of this hardship behind." But what's sad, I think, is that you start to begin identifying your community as just trauma. You're not able to kind of reshape the conversation a little bit, reshape that element of identity that's so crucial and so important and so beautiful. And I think it's that disconnect that kind of fosters that continued trauma.

Lina: For me personally, because I've lived part of my life in Gaza, I've lived personally through some of that war trauma and through some of those experiences, I know that there are times to this day that I constantly feel tense. If sometimes you call me out of the blue, I get really anxious about something went wrong. I physically notice the difference in my body and how it reacts. And it did take me quite a bit to realize that a lot of that is just from my experiences back home and how much I am tense for a lot of my time.

I mean, in school, we've learned a part of it is that there have been studies that show how trauma can be passed down physically through generations. That's been done on Native Americans and black people, and they've physically seen the changes in someone's brain and their anxiety and their stress and how that can affect their lifetime, even if they haven't been exposed to that trauma. And I do see it in myself as well.

Mariam: I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because when you talk about trauma, trauma is stored in the body. We get a little bit of a training on it in medical school as we're trying to understand how emotional trauma impacts our patients' well-being, but it's real.

Trauma is something that is embodied and it is something that can be passed down as well. And we don't talk about it enough in these types of conversations either, especially in healthcare. I think that just leads into "How do you heal generational trauma?"

Lina: When I also think about coping through that trauma, I think about another side of it: continuing to be a fighter or in fight mode. And it comes from, "You're so resilient. You are so strong," and you feel like you constantly have to be in that mode of defense or fight mode.

I was there for such a long time because anyone I've shared my experience with will be like, "Oh, you're so strong. You're so resilient." And it gets to the point where I feel like I can't really process my feelings and emotions. I can't process that trauma because I constantly have to make sure that I'm strong and that I'm at this powerful stance.

And I think tying into how we can heal is realizing that you don't have to be that all the time, or I don't have to be that all the time. I've really seen how I did heal from stepping away from that thought, being vulnerable with you, with my Palestinian friends, being okay to feel weak. And sometimes you don't have to constantly fight. You don't have to constantly be on defense mode. You don't have to be resilient. Sometimes I just want to cry about home.

And I think having that thought, it did really help me find a way to heal a little bit more. And it's kind of opened up sometimes with my family. Sometimes we feel really sad about things and it's too much to be angry right now. I just want to grieve with my family or just be in this position where I don't want to put that energy right now.

There is a time and place for everything, but I think it's important to recognize you can be vulnerable. You don't have to fight all the time. You don't have to be the strong one. You can rely on your community for them to be the strong one today and you to kind of rely on them for that support.

Mariam: PSA for anybody out there who needed to hear that. It's true. There is such a dopamine rush that at least I get whenever people say, "You're resilient," or, "You come from a resilient background."

Resilience is well and good, but I think what you said is so spot on. I think healing is more than just sticking to that resilience, because I think sometimes it becomes a part of our identity. But resilience, it's passed down for sure, just like trauma, but it's not healing. And that's a huge, very crucial part of this conversation.

I think healing is community. I think healing is love. And not to be sappy, but I think that this episode was really special for me to do with Lina specifically, because I think our relationship as friends was part of that. It's part of that healing experience.

Lina: The amount of times you've told me, "It's okay to grieve," I needed to hear that because I felt like I couldn't grieve. I've lost people. I've lost a big part of my identity. And it felt like, "No, I just need to distract myself and be powerful," but you constantly kept reminding me it's okay to grieve.

Mariam: I think these types of relationships are so important because we're going to be the generation. We're going to change it for our kids. I mean, that's the hope. I always joke. I'm like, "I'm going to be a really problematic Middle Eastern mom. Just watch." The goal is to heal the next generation.

Lina: Yes.

Mariam: I want to wrap up our episode, Lina, by talking about how this applies to healthcare, because we're going to be doctors one day.

Lina: "Bundle of Hers."

Mariam: "Bundle of Hers." And I think this conversation does really apply to medicine in two different parts. The first part that I want to talk about is the patient side of things.

Lina and I talk about our Middle Eastern backgrounds, but there are so many different communities that experience generational trauma because of historic oppressions. And a lot of them are communities that we serve here in the United States.

I think it's important for future physicians, future healthcare providers, to have a really good awareness of how generational trauma will impact not just the health and well-being of our patients, but also their relationship with healthcare.

We know that systemic racism, we know that homophobia, transphobia, all these many different systemic oppressions can definitely shape how individuals, not just in this current generation, but throughout multiple generations based on their lived experiences, through their families and their communities, interact with healthcare. And so that's a really important piece to this conversation.

And then the other important piece of this conversation as it pertains to healthcare is also just the personal side of things and why we want to approach healthcare. I think that when you're talking about healing through generational trauma, there are so many different ways to do it.

And I know that, Lina, you and I had talked about as future physicians, we want to heal our communities. We want to heal the next generation. And I think part of how we want to do that is by practicing as physicians and taking care of our people because that's such a huge part of this. If they don't have a good relationship with healthcare and particularly in this country and in this system, then what do they have?

Lina: Yeah. And time and time again, we've seen how both me and you personally have healed through our communities and have seen how it can be really healing for us to be vulnerable, to be strong, to be open, to have that support, and want to be able to do that to our patients as well. I recognize how my life changed with knowing that.

Mariam: I think in healthcare, we have a responsibility to do a lot of healing for that generational trauma, because our healthcare system in the United States, especially, has a very horrible history in how they've treated minorities, how they've treated many different communities. And so there's a lot of healing generational trauma that has occurred within the healthcare system.

So these are just really important things, I think, for us to think about moving forward. No pressure for us though, right?

Lina: Not at all.

Mariam: Not at all. We've got this. Future generation of doctors, we've got this.

Well, Lina, thanks for having this conversation with me. This was, I felt, a very healing episode and . . .

Lina: Me too.

Mariam: Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for listening to "Bundle of Hers." Shoot, I forgot how to say bye. What do you say? Okay. I'm really so glad that we had this conversation. This is something that I've felt for the longest time. It's something that I've embodied for the longest time, but never was able to voice or talk about, especially on a platform as special as "Bundles." So I'm really glad that we got to do this and I hope our listeners get as much out of it as we did.

Well, thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of "Bundle of Hers." To tune into more episodes of "Bundle of Hers," follow us wherever you podcast. And please follow us on Instagram @bundleofhers for updates on new episodes and really fun, cute posts about us and life.

Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye.

Lina: Bye.

Mariam: We're so awkward.