S6E11: Identity and Community in a Diverse Society

Harjit: I love the West Side. If there's one thing I want people to know about me, it's I'm from West Valley.

Hạ: And I always like people to know that I'm from the West Side of Salt Lake, that I live really close to the world's largest Costco.

Harjit: Which, by the way, I didn't know was that Costco.

Hạ: Yeah, it's that Costco. It's humongous. It doesn't feel that way when you're in the Costco, but it's actually humongous.

Harjit: No. Because I'm like, "Costcos are supposed to be big."

Hạ: Well, dear listeners, welcome to "Bundle of Hers." It's Hạ here in the virtual studio. And I'm joined by Harjit.

Harjit: Hello.

Hạ: How are you feeling, Harjit? So TikTok, particularly this discourse that happened a few months ago, and it was regarding ABG. And when I say ABG, I don't mean arterial blood gas, as most medical people want to think when they hear ABG, but I mean something else. And it actually stands for Asian Baby Girl.

A lot of times Asian Baby Girl is referring to the stereotype about this young Asian woman who has these really stereotypical traits of they love to club, they like to wear excessive makeup and tattoos, they love drinking boba, they have this very distinct style of makeup. They go against the typical stereotype of Asian women as being really polite, studious, and instead being very rebellious.

And so this is kind of this cultural grouping phenomenon thing within the Asian community. And it's really interesting because what was happening with this discourse was that there is this back and forth that was happening among Asian . . . I forget what they call them. Creators? Is that what they call it for people who create TikTok videos?

Harjit: Yeah.

Hạ: Yeah. So there were all these . . .

Harjit: Influencers, creators.

Hạ: Influencers, creators. So there are all these people on . . . these Asian women on TikTok who are having this back and forth, because over the years, ABG has really become used quite frequently to represent this sort of aesthetic, this sort of style in a way. It's kind of seen as something really cool. So now ABG is often used a lot by East Asians.

And this discourse that was happening was that the Southeast Asian creators came in and they said that, actually, ABG was a term that was coined in reference to the Southeast Asian diaspora in the late 1990s and early 2000s. And it was referring to Asian women, particularly those from Southeast Asian backgrounds, who were involved in gangs, criminal activities, and recreational drug use. ABG was also known as the Asian Baby Gangster.

And it was a really interesting discourse because ABG since then has been really appropriated to become something much more aesthetic. And a lot of the huge discourse was about the Southeast Asian versus the East Asian experience.

This is a bit of a generalization, and I believe that everybody has their own stories and backgrounds, but a big part of the discourse that they were talking about is that East Asians often end up in the U.S. on work or investment visas, whereas a lot of Southeast Asians came in as refugees. And so there are often income gaps between both groups. And those income gaps are often overlooked because of the generalizing nature of the model minority myth.

But it was really interesting seeing that ABG has become more known in pop cultural reference once it got, in a way, taken up by the East Asian community a lot more.

And so there was a lot of complexity to this discussion, but really, I wanted to bring up this discourse in ABG as a launching pad to talk about something related, but not about ABGs. It's actually a bit about my identity, which is in line with the theme for this season. It's that my identity is Asian-American, but I am very specifically Vietnamese-American. And that's a very distinct identity from other Asian ethnicities.

So to start us off, Harjit, I'm really curious, how do you see your race and ethnicity as a source of your identity and a source of pride?

Harjit: So I'm Indian. I was born in Punjab, which is a state in India. But over the years, I've really started embracing my Punjabi identity, which is more of my ethnic identity. And I find that a lot of that pride that I have is actually from my Punjabi identity and not my Indian identity. That's something that I've been really, really grappling and thinking about.

Though I do have some pride of being an Indian, I have more pride of being a Punjabi because we are a community that I feel stands out from the rest of India.

It just kind of reminded me of this discussion of East Asians versus Southeast Asians and kind of the privileges and the differences we have there.

Hạ: What you were talking about how you first identified as Indian, and then you really zoned in on your identity as a Punjabi woman really parallels a lot of my growth and development with my own identity in regards to my race and ethnicity too.

Growing up, I believe that a lot of the world just looped me in this whole category of Asian-American. And a lot of what the world sees as Asian-American is actually often East Asian.

So, in actuality, when I was young, I distinctly remember a point in my life where I made this comment about how I thought I was Chinese and my mom was like, "No, you're not Chinese. You're Vietnamese."

And so after I came to that realization, a lot of my life was trying to really understand what it means to be Vietnamese-American, and also what being Vietnamese-American means in relationship to other Asian-Americans, and I found that there were a lot of parallels.

We often had very similar foods. We often had very similar holidays, similar focus on community and on ancestral relations and family. But there were also a lot of differences. And it took a while for me to really understand those differences and to also reflect on the fact that I ultimately feel a lot more Vietnamese-American than within the greater Asian bubble. And that played actually a really huge role in me trying to find community.

First, growing up in Utah, I did have Asian-American friends and I was a part of a little bit of the Vietnamese-American community through Temple. But when I got to college, I was so stoked. I really wanted to meet more Asian-Americans because I was really hopeful that there would be this joy in being able to have shared experiences and interests. I also felt that there was this expectation that I should be able to fit in with all Asian-Americans, right?

But what really cinched the deal of me trying to really understand my identity in regards to my race and ethnicity was slowly coming to terms with the fact that I felt more belonging when I was with the Vietnamese-American community, but I often felt a bit off when I was with the more general, broad Asian-American community.

Harjit: I'm having a lot of reflections, Hạ. So while I was growing up in high school, I hung out with all the Asian crew, as we called it, and I grew up with a lot of Asians.

But it wasn't in college until I started seeing that the Asians that I grew up with were all Southeast Asians. So this is people from Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos. And when I was in college, I saw this whole other group of Asians, such as Chinese or Korean or Japanese, which I wasn't used to growing up.

And it was so interesting because at the same time, looking at my own identity, there were so many Indians that were at the University of Utah, but only a minute amount were Punjabi.

And then it finally made sense to me why it was so hard for me to be to the point to go to college. My sisters had to fight for us to go to college. It wasn't in our fate and it wasn't something that our parents encouraged, because that wasn't the life they knew.

And so I was like, "Oh, my god." I was in this hype mode, like, "Oh, my god. I'm in college. I finally made it. I don't have to get married. I can finally do things that I care about." But then I realized I met so many other Indians who this was their life. This was what they were told they would do since they were born and were prepared for.

I just want to make that realization that I kind of understand where you're coming from.

Hạ: And also, I feel very privileged because I had a family that really did value education and really worked hard. My mom worked so hard to give me space so that I could reach the educational goals that I wanted.

But there were just parts about my experiences growing up that felt so different from a lot of the peers that I found in college who when I looked at them, I thought, "Oh, we should have been besties because we all like boba. We all love K-pop, K-dramas." We have all of these very superficial shared connections.

But then when I would sit and have conversations, it kind of became clear that they came from backgrounds where maybe their families came on visas, where their parents were engineers or their parents were doctors or had all of these situations in hand. They were looped into feeder schools. They made space for their education, but in a much more guided way than anything that I was ever used to.

And just having conversations with them, sometimes I felt like I couldn't completely be myself and be vulnerable.

And the very few people that came from those backgrounds that I had a much easier time being vulnerable with were actually the people who were flat-out honest about it and said, "I recognize that I came from a much more privileged background than you came from, and I recognize that I had all these resources." And we were able to wage and have those conversations a lot more readily.

I think it was there that I started really thinking about how I build community and how I form relationships. And it's still something that I struggle with a lot, because I think a lot of me still always feels like I have to be friends with every Asian-American that I run into.

Harjit:Oh, yeah.

Hạ:Especially in a place like Salt Lake City, especially when you get to higher ed. You just see them and you're like, "I never knew you at all."

Harjit: I know. I go to coffee shops and I'm like, "Oh, look, it's an Indian person at the cash register," or, "Oh, look, they're eating ice cream there." You just feel some type of connection. I don't know if it's that's the way we're raised, but we just feel this homey-ness.

Hạ: Yeah. You feel like we should understand each other, we should be able to have all of these conversations, but then oftentimes I end up being very disappointed because I sit down and because of their political upbringing or their background, we just don't connect.

Harjit: Yeah, that's totally fair.

Hạ: And it's just really, really hard when that happens. And sometimes I go back and I sit and I'm like, "Am I Asian-American enough? Why is it that I just couldn't do that?"

And that was something I struggled a lot with college because . . . You know, Harjit, but the listeners probably don't know. In college, my Asian-American community was mostly the Vietnamese Association, but most of the other POCs that I hung out with were not Southeast Asian or East Asian. I actually hung out with a lot more South Asians.

It always felt like I was doing something wrong because I felt like I should be hanging out with all of the East Asians and all the other people who look a lot more like me.

Harjit: And I think that brings up a really good point, Hạ, because I think there's this instance where we're like, "Oh, we should be connected," but then you realize that a lot of our lives are shaped by a million different factors. And even though we're all Asian, it's the whole thing that you can't think every place in Asia is the same way, or people grow up the same way or act the same way.

But I think when we're in a place where, in America, we want to feel like everyone that is "in our distinction" will be like us. They'll get passionate about the same things we care about.

And so I understand what you're saying, because I too wouldn't hang out with the Indians. I would hang out with everybody from similar backgrounds from where I grew up. A lot of my friends were, like I said, Southeast Asian or Latino because that was just what I was used to.

And I realized that is my connection and that's where I find peace, because they understand me and they understand how I grew up even though they might not be from the exact same region as me.

Hạ: I think that was where I had to kind of realize I have a lot of pride being Asian-American, being Vietnamese-American, but connection isn't really built on just those basic superficialities, even though I think a lot of society wants us to think that way with the way that they group us and they simplify us. But connection is really built based off of experiences and belief systems.

And all of those are very much impacted by things like socioeconomic status, by your gender, by your sexuality, what your family situation is like, and what you're taught.

But a lot of the world just really likes to create these really, really clear categories and just box us into it, such that something about our identity, like our race and ethnicity, that should really be powerful and really uplift us up sometimes kind of makes us feel very limited too.

Harjit: I completely agree with that. And I feel like we fall into those tropes as well, right? And that's why I struggled with that a lot in college, because I was like, "This doesn't make sense. I'm finally with other Indian people and I don't feel the same comfort."

That's when I say that I had that shift that I'm Indian, but I'm also Punjabi. And I think that's when I started to want to know more about my specific community and my culture and why I felt the way that I felt.

So, in ways, it was hard because I too did what everyone else does, which is see those clear boundaries, but then it also allowed me to want to learn more about where I'm from and why my people are powerful.

Hạ: And it's something I still work on quite a bit, but I think it does also allow me to give a lot of grace and a lot of kindness in my interactions with people a lot more.

I still even remember recently I was talking with Mariam, this exact conversation, because I was saying, "Oh, I really thought I could really connect with this person because we're both POC, in medicine, in Utah, but I don't know why I can't connect." And Mariam was like, "I feel sometimes we're just so harsh on each other as POCs because we just have these expectations about what each other are supposed to be and it's really unfair."

But when you kind of give that grace and that space to say, "Even though we share the same race, the same ethnicity, the same cultural background, or just the same of not being a part of the majority in whatever field we decide to pursue, even though we share that, we can also be pretty different too, and that's okay."

Harjit: I agree with that. I also had this conversation with Mariam too. I think it's so funny we had the same conversation, but this is exactly what we talked about. I think there are certain expectations we have of each other, but then that also makes me sad because that's the stuff that we are working against, is those assumptions and expectations. And sometimes we're harder on our own people.

I feel like through that, I've learned that sometimes you've just got to give people a little bit more grace and learn what makes them who they are, right? And in that way, you can find some connection.

And sometimes you click with people and sometimes you don't, and that's okay too. You can still really honor people without being their closest friend.

Hạ: It's so funny because I keep getting into these weird cycles of thoughts, but then I also recognize quite clearly that in a lot of medicine we expect POCs to be the ones who always do the advocacy work, who always do the diversity work, and we put them into those buckets just because of their race and ethnicity as their identity, and we just extend it forward.

Harjit: Oh, totally. "Oh, you're Asian, so you know how all of the Asian-American experience should be." And it's like, "Uh, no, there are very specific areas that are impacted differently."

Hạ: Yeah. Because we just keep getting caught up in those things, what we do in our personal lives and how we view the world personally ends up extending into how we expect people to perform in their careers related to medicine.

And we use these generalizations to say things about healthcare disparities and such like that without being really thoughtful about it, which is always frustrating when I have these conversations because I know that when I'm able to be rational and I'm speaking more on a stage per se of sorts, I'm having the conversations and I can be really intentional about it. But then I look at how I treat people on the day-to-day and I go, "Oh, no, I fell for these assumptions and these stereotypes and these problematic belief sets."

Harjit: Totally. I guess for any of our listeners who are doing diversity, equity, or inclusion work, I think this is something we all have to be careful of. We've all made that mistake.

For example, I'm going to say I'm Indian. I don't understand every Indian experience. There are like 30 different states with their own language, with their own cuisine, their own culture. And though, yes, I'm Indian and there are some shared values and things that are important, I cannot speak for my entire communities.

And I think that's something that we should be careful of when we ask people about their opinion on certain things or we kind of put that work on people because we're like, "Oh, this is about your group, so you should talk about it."

I think this goes in any vein. It can be race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender. We can never assume the experience of somebody else all because we're part of one larger umbrella. And I think that's the important point that we have to think about. We all do fall into these patterns and we need to be conscious of that.

I will be the first to admit that I have done it too. And I have been working on being better about understanding how a person could be Asian, but depending on from where they are or if they're a refugee or not a refugee, they can have a totally different life.

Hạ: I feel like a continual recurring theme when thinking about identity is just to really be open-minded about it, and to really give people the space to tell their story the way they want to tell their story.

When we come in with expectations or just belief sets, we end up limiting people into really being able to embrace all that they are and be able to bring in all aspects of their identity to really find deep empowerment within themselves.

Harjit: I totally agree with that. And also, another thing I've been thinking about with medicine is when we look at ways certain ethnicities or races are impacted by conditions, this is something also that we have to be really careful of. Where is the research? Where are the studies that are being done? Which communities? Because it's another way that we can make generalizations that aren't accurate, but say, "Oh, it's evidence-based." But then it's like, "Yeah, but you need to read into research and see all the nuances that exist there."

Hạ: Yeah. Truly thinking about it, for instance, the healthcare disparities faced by the Filipino community are very different than maybe the healthcare disparities faced by the Vietnamese community or the Japanese community.

But even within the Vietnamese community, I feel like I . . . For instance, just talking personally for me, I feel like I have a lot more privileges than some people from my community who don't have access to education.

There's me here almost with an MD degree being able to be on a podcast and having these conversations, and then there are other people within my community who just don't have access to all of that and live very different lives and have had very different trajectories. Our experiences, the healthcare and social disparities, and socioeconomic circumstances that we face are just going to be drastically different.

Harjit: Oh, totally. I think about this a lot because I'm like, "Am I getting out of touch?" I grew up in a community where me and my sisters were three girls. No one used to invite us to anything. My parents aren't educated. They're from the village. And all of a sudden, all three of us are now doctors and people treat us drastically different. We are invited to things. We know what's happening in the community.

I guess it's refreshing that I was able to see that in my lifetime, but it also makes me sad sometimes because I think about how now, because I'm privileged with higher socioeconomic status and education, the ability to speak the way I speak, and understand the things I understand because of my opportunities, I also wonder, "Am I getting out of touch?"

And so this is a constant reminder to myself that we really have to take every individual story as their own.

Hạ: I think that's really poignant. Actually, I don't know how to pronounce that word. I don't know why I tried it.

Harjit: Don't ask me. You know how I pronounce stuff.

Hạ: Who knows? So, anyhow, I think that was a very beautiful way to end it. So I would just . . . Well, I guess we kind of ruined it with our mispronunciations of a word, but . . .

Harjit: Whatever. We know what we were talking about. That's what matters. What matters is we understand.

Hạ: Yes. For our dear listeners, I hope that you were able to enjoy our conversation about thinking about identity through the perspective of race and ethnicity and beyond.

If there was anything from our conversation that made you really think and that you really wanted to share or if you wanted to tell us how to properly pronounce poignant, we do have new pins that are here.

Harjit:Woo-woo.

Hạ:Yes. And so we have them available if you're willing to share your stories or tell us how to pronounce poignant, whatever you want to do. We would love to hear from you because, really, a lot of this work is . . . it's always collective growth.

Harjit: So in our reflections for the grief episode, we had a wonderful listener, Talisha, share her thoughts about grief. So I want to read it to you all.

Talisha says, "My grief around personal lack and loss of family relationships has become very poignant." Sorry, I didn't know that word was going to be in there. Okay, one minute. I said it right. Let me start again.

"My grief around personal lack and loss of family relationships has become very poignant whenever I come into contact with patients struggling with familial support during their hospitalization. I've had a lot of transference and countertransference in these instances and have had to learn, and I'm still learning, how to navigate the heaviness and strong emotions.

"Recently, in child psychiatry, I had an attending who stressed the importance of naming out loud these emotions, which have been a helpful tool for me, as this was an especially difficult rotation for me. The episode is amazing. Thank you all so much."

Talisha, thank you so much for this message, and I also want to thank you for allowing us to hear a little bit more about your grief.

And once again, if you all have stories to share, please share them with us and we're excited to give you all our new pins.

Hạ: You can, as always, listen to our podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, be it Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any website available that features it. And we hope to keep having great conversations with you all. We'll see you next week.

Harjit: Thank you.