S6E22: The Complexities of The American Dream

Ludovica: You go through the alphabet and death summary and discharge summary are dangerously close to one another. So I accidentally selected the death summary for the patient. And then I couldn't just erase it, of course. I had to get on the phone in front of my surgery's chief, senior resident, intern, everybody and their dog, and just announce that I needed to delete this death summary since my patient was indeed alive. So please do not repeat this mistake.

Merry: Noted.

Hạ: I feel that you had to know about this very important story, Merry, before you start third year.

But hello to our dear listeners. I hope you also got much learning from Ludovica's good mistakes. And I am actually here, as you may have figured out . . . with all the names that were getting thrown out, you were probably like, "Ha, these names sound a lot more different than the ones that I'm used to." So I have two very special guests with me here today, Merry and Ludovica. And I'll actually have them formally introduce themselves. Merry, do you want to start?

Merry: Yes. First off, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be on a "Bundle of Hers" episode. I am a rising third-year medical student at the University of Utah School of Medicine, or Spencer Fox Eccles School of Medicine. And I am excited to start my rotations so I can kind of officially figure out what I want to specialize in, because right now I am neuro and psychiatry interested, and I'm hoping it stays that way. But I'm going into third-year with an open mind, because who knows what will happen.

Ludovica: What will happen, Merry, is that you will pick neurology. That's what should happen.

Merry: I hope so too.

Hạ: No bias whatsoever from Ludovica.

Ludovica: No bias here at all. Anyway, I'm Ludovica. I'm a rising PGY-1 going into neurology. So that's why I'm hoping Merry will follow in my footsteps.

Hạ: Where are you going, Ludovica?

Ludovica: I'm going to Brown.

Hạ: Woohoo. Yeah, it's so exciting. We have potentially two budding nerdologists, as we affectionately call them. So I think that as you might now tell with Ludovica saying that she's a rising PGY-1, we have graduated medical school. I think for me, every time when I graduate, I start really getting reflective and I start really thinking about things.

And one night during the depths of my sleep, I remembered this story that happened to me back when I was in high school, so a decade ago just to age myself out for all of our listeners out there. It was me in high school preparing for my high school graduation and I was about to head off to Boston to attend a really good college for my undergrad.

And one of my high school classmates was kind of getting a sense of my family situation. And for our listeners who don't know, I came from a single-parent immigrant background. Also grew up with my grandparents and all of that jazz.

And when I told her this story, she looked at me and she said, "Oh, you really do represent the American dream. Your family must be so proud." High school me at that time, I was like, "Yeah, I guess I do represent the American dream." But it's been 10 years now and I think since that time, I've really grown and thought more deeply about this assumption of the American dream.

And as I'm about to move on to my next phase in life, and hopefully now be done with school forever, I kind of wanted to talk a bit about it a bit more, which is why I'm so happy to have you, Merry and Ludovica, to join this discussion.

For some context before we kick off, I really want to let people know about what the American dream is. You might have heard of it, you might have a sense of it already, but it's really this national ethos that's focused on the U.S. ideals of democracy, rights, liberty, and equality. All of this is thanks to Wikipedia, by the way. Wonderful resource for your needs.

And the typical focus when people talk about the American dream is they're really focused on this idea of individual prosperity and success, the idea that you can be an immigrant and you come in and you can have this upward social mobility for yourself and for your subsequent descendants.

And that's why my story resonated with this classmate as a representation of the American dream. But as I've mentioned, growing older, I've learned a lot about these very complicated issues with this ideology, right?

Just to summarize, there are a lot of critiques that you can find on the internet, in books that focus on the idea of how the American dream really focuses on consumerism, materialism, lack of worker solidarity, a really poor perspective on the idea of American exceptionalism, which is this concept that the U.S. was really perfect and really exceptional, and that where we are right now wasn't built off of the blood and the oppression of others.

So the American dream isn't perfect, but for this topic, I feel that there are so many people who talk about the American dream in a more critical theory sort of lens very well. And really, for the purpose of this topic and why I want to have you, Ludovica and Merry, here is I really want to talk about the personal, the identity aspects in line with the season's theme of identity in relation to the American dream.

So, to start us off, I just wonder with all of this context that I've talked and also of your understanding of the American dream, when I say those three words, what do you immediately feel?

Ludovica: I immediately think about the thought of the typical American thing of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. And personally, I am originally from Italy, born and raised in Rieti, next to Rome. And so for me, for my people, it's the idea of going through Ellis Island, which I actually had the pleasure of visiting a few years ago.

And back then for Italians who were traveling to the United States, more often than not, they came from the south of Italy, which is historically the more lower SES part of Italy, not as many jobs. And so a lot of people were leaving with the hopes of coming to America in the early 1900s for the prospect of jobs, giving a better education to their children, and being able to have more money to send back home.

I actually had both of my great-grandparents come from Italy to the United States. And they ended up moving back, but during that time they saved up money and sent it back to Italy.

So the idea of the American dream was what I just talked about. But in reality, as it happens with most new immigrants coming to any country, they were not viewed favorably. So Italians were viewed as a menace to the country a little bit, coming in and taking away jobs from Americans.

And there was this newspaper article from "The New York Times" around that time. Again, I don't remember exactly when, maybe 1900s. It showed these rats coming into New York City and it was supposed to be the representation of Italians. So that was the idea of the American dream that I grew up with and that I learned.

And for what it's worth, yes, my great-grandparents were able to save a lot of money, but the circumstances under which they did that were not ideal.

Merry: Yeah, I completely resonate with what you said, Ludovica. I think there's an underbelly to the American dream that we don't know and so many people don't really think about until they're in this country and they're like, "Oh, what I thought was the American dream is not really reflective of my experience or my family's journey in this country."

Yeah, I think when I think of American dream, I sort of think of all the hidden dreams that don't get explicitly stated. When you think of the definition, like Ha mentioned, it was like very capitalistic centered, very materialistic. And I also think of who is the American dream actually realistically attainable for, right?

So I was born in India, but then when I was 3 months old, my family and I moved from Kerala, India, to Singapore and that's where I grew up for a bit.

And then kind of during the economic recession of 2008, my dad was able to find a job here in Utah and that's what brought us to the United States. So we moved from Singapore to Utah directly.

I remember when my dad told us we were moving here. I was like, "Where are we going?" I didn't even know Utah was a state in the U.S. I was like, "Where are you taking us?" It's a running joke in our family that we used to pronounce Utah as "oo-tah" because we didn't even know how to pronounce it. And that's how my cousins pronounce it back home in India too. So it was definitely a huge culture shock moving here, right?

Also, I had a community in Singapore that I was leaving behind to move to this new country. So there was a lot of uncertainty and fear of whether I'd be welcome. And it was hard initially because I was like the only brown girl in my neighborhood, in my school. I had curly, frizzy hair. I had an accent.

I still remember in my sixth-grade math class, we were going over answers and I pronounced H as "hay-ch" and I got made fun of because of how I would pronounce things differently.

So my family's kind of idea of American dream was very similar to yours, Ludovica, of you pick yourself up by your bootstraps, you work your hardest. If we grind hard, if we work hard continuously, then maybe one day we too can live like our neighbors or live like these families that we're seeing in our church community, right?

And so that was sort of the perception. However, as I grew older, I kind of was struck by a lot of the immigration realities that we have to face that sort of make the attainability of that American dream a lot harder and sometimes near impossible.

I still remember in high school when I was applying to colleges, when I finally realized that I was on a visa and that would limit which colleges I could apply for, which scholarships I could get. I was like, "Oh, but I thought if I worked really hard in high school, got the grades, did all these extracurriculars, I too could do all these things that my friends are doing, like going to these colleges or going to these cool programs."

And so I think that's when I kind of really was struck by the fact that the American dream may not be attainable for so many people, for so many communities.

And like what you mentioned, our country kind of has this view of desirable immigrants versus undesirable immigrants, right? If you're a productive immigrant, if you're going to contribute so much and you're extraordinary, then we want you in this country. But if not, then maybe we don't want you in this country. So it is very complicated and there's this underbelly to the American dream that is problematic.

Ludovica: Yeah, Merry, I totally resonate with that. I remember when you and I met a couple of months ago and we got coffee and we were talking about the plight of immigrants who have the H1 visa. I believe you and I both had that.

Merry: Yep.

Ludovica: Correct me if I'm wrong. So, in my case, we also came back to Utah during the recession of 2008 and my dad at the time was requested for a green card. And so he had the H4, I believe, and then my mom and I had the H1. And what that means is that H1 people, so my mom and I, could not legally work in the United States and we could not receive scholarships to top it all off. So I felt the exact same way as you, Merry.

I remember I had applied to all these fancy colleges, and I did get into one in California, and then I found out that I couldn't apply for loans. So there's no way I would be able to pay for that. And then I had, I believe, a half ride or a full ride to the University of Utah back then. Also, because I had that visa, I wasn't eligible for any of it and it was so shocking to me.

I worked so hard in high school for nothing. I don't know. Well, not for nothing. I mean, it felt a little bit . . . there were some bitter feelings about that. So I can totally empathize with you.

Yeah, I think there were so many things about the American dream that none of us knew about. I mean, when we came we didn't know how difficult it would be to get a green card.

I became a citizen in this country in 2019, so during my first year of medical school. And when I told my Italian friends or everybody else, they were like, "Didn't you move to the U.S. in like 2006? Why did it take you 13 years to become American?" I was like, "Why? Oh, let me tell you. Sit down because it's going to take a while."

But yeah, like it's a very long and difficult process. I mean, not all immigrants are created equal. I know from what my dad and I learned about this process is that people from different countries are put in a different box. For example, I was in the European box, so my green card would move a little bit faster than, for example, my . . . I had a lot of friends from India . . . than their green card. People don't know that, right?

I don't know. There are so many undertones that people don't realize and it's so frustrating when you're in the process and you see some of your dreams kind of slip away and your family. It was really hard for my mom to not be able to work for many years. And those are things people don't realize when they move here.

Hạ: And I really appreciate both of your perspectives, Merry and Ludovica, because for me as a second-generation American, I think that I was just immediately granted all of these privileges very easily in terms of scholarships, in terms of loan money, just in lieu of me being born here. And the fact that I was born here just maybe one year after my family had immigrated, it's wild to just think about this is how the system is built, right?

I think it makes it very hard because then when you think about, for instance, that person in high school telling me about, "Oh, you're representing the American dream," that's really negating a lot of the privileges that I was born with, that I was literally born with because I was born with U.S. citizenship.

But it also negates the fact that, as we've alluded to, when people talk about immigrant success stories and when people frame immigrants, there are the good immigrants and the bad immigrants.

As I've talked about multiple times in multiple episodes, being a more fair-skinned Vietnamese American, I come in with a bit of model minority privilege too that's granted me the access to the things that I have access to.

And I guess that makes me also just curious about your thoughts about . . . I know that currently right now, especially with you, Merry, there's a lot of policy stuff that's happening and a lot of things that we're trying to do to navigate to make things more equitable and to have justice in this world for people who are dreaming.

Merry: I think for me, finding this youth-led advocacy group was just finally so comforting after so many years of feeling like, "Oh, I can't really explain my immigration situation. No one is going to get it. My friends don't really get it because I speak like them, I have an American accent, so they don't assume I'm an immigrant with these visa struggles." So just finding this community called Improve the Dream has been just so comforting and reassuring.

And so this advocacy group is essentially proposing new bills and legislative changes in both the state and national level to quite literally improve the dream. We know about the DREAMers, DACA. And essentially, what this group is doing is we are wanting to expand who qualifies under or who's counted as a DREAMer. Not just folks who come to this country on an undocumented status, but also those who come here on documented status and are children of long-term visa holders.

So I think at the end of the day, it's been just really . . . I don't know. In a way, it's kind of like reclaiming the American dream in my eyes because in addition to living in this country and doing what I'm doing by studying and trying to be a doctor, I'm also participating in the legal process, or the civic process and actually being engaged in politics and in the laws that are being created in this country.

So in my eyes I'm like, "Oh, this is truly what the American dream is. It's being engaged in your country and positively contributing to make a difference not just for yourself but for your community and those who will come after you."

We currently have a bill that's been introduced and it's called America's Children's Act and it is hoping to end aging out for children of long-term visa holders. So quite literally, stopping children who were raised, educated, brought up in this country from having to self-deport when they turn 21. Currently, that's what happens.

So oftentimes when you think about the immigration debate, you'll hear from people when you're discussing DREAMers or those on DACA status like, "Oh, they should come in the right way. We have a legal immigration system, so come in the right way." But people don't realize that you can come in the "right way" and still be stuck in an immigration limbo, still have to self-deport, or not have a path to citizenship once you turn 21.

So our goal with Improve the Dream is to quite literally make sure that children who were raised here, who were educated here, brought up here aren't going to be separated from their families. Regardless of their status, can stay here and continue to make an impact in their communities.

So it's been really a privilege and just . . . I've been so grateful to be part of this community to advocate for this change.

Ludovica: Can I say that you're doing amazing work, Merry? I wish you had been there when I was going through this process when I was young in high school. I think it's amazing that you are getting involved and doing that while you're a rising third-year medical student. I mean, that's amazing. I'm very happy for you. I can't wait for you to be my fellow neurologist.

Merry: I know. Oh, thank you so much, Ludo.

Hạ: Yeah, Merry is amazing. And for our listeners to know, Merry actually just took Step, that big licensing exam in medicine, and then immediately went to D.C. to talk about these very important topics and to really push for change.

I really liked what you were saying, Merry, about reframing the American dream because I think for me, a lot of my life, once I started realizing those complexities of what the American dream entailed . . . all of the isms that made it terrible, right? I had mentioned it before, capitalism, consumerism, even racism playing a huge role into it too.

And when I thought about it, I started feeling like this was very discouraging and sometimes I would sit and go, "I know what my family did and what my family really sacrificed to be able to bring me here." My family went through so much to get me the stability that I have right now.

But sometimes I do sit and I wonder, "Was it really generally worth it because of what we're facing against?" And also that we're in this world that's so individualistic and self-centered on that. Whereas if we were in Vietnam, there's always this more community feel to it, and maybe it's also my mom being romanticizing her good memories of Vietnam.

But I just sit and I'm like, "Why do I really want to achieve this?" where it feels as if it's counterintuitive to the community-based ideals that I really care about.

And so I found what you were saying about reframing to be really powerful. When we're thinking about change, there are always two choices, right? Being able to really take it and re-empower it into our own definitions, or just rejection. And that's something that I still go back and forth between in my work about advocacy. But I'd really love to hear, for instance, Ludovica, what are your thoughts on that?

Ludovica: Yeah, I would agree 1000%, Ha. I mean, I feel like I maybe do the same thing as your mom. And sometimes I do think about what my life would've been like if I hadn't come here and if I'd stayed in Italy.

I was just barely there for a month doing a rotation. As I was there, I kept thinking, "What would my life have been like here?" I mean, it wouldn't have been necessarily worse than what I have now. I mean, the pace of life of Europeans is more chill. Universal healthcare is a thing and I love that. So there were a lot of reasons why sometimes I wish, "What if I had stayed?"

And I think I also find myself in a difficult situation too, and I don't know if you guys experience this, but sometimes when I'm in Italy I feel like I'm not Italian enough for the Italians, and when I'm in the U.S. I'm not American enough for the Americans, and I always have to juggle that.

When I'm in Italy sometimes I don't remember certain words. And I know they mean it in a funny way, but sometimes they'll make fun of me and be like, "Oh, Ludo doesn't remember these things. She's so American now," without realizing that that hurts my feelings, or telling me, "Oh, you don't remember this show because you weren't here." I know they don't mean it in a negative way, but it does hurt my feelings and it makes me feel like, "What dream am I living? Is it the American dream or the I'm not even a full American or full Italian dream?"

Ha and I always talk about this because she's one of the only few people that I can discuss this topic with, because not a lot of other people understand. I don't know. That has been something that I've been struggling with and I've tried really hard during medical school to try to maintain my roots and my culture, which was a huge reason why I went back to Italy for my rotation, so that I could learn medical Italian and I could actually talk to my family about any medical question that they have.

Normally, I don't have the words to explain it and it makes me feel like, "How is it that this is my first language and I'm losing it?" I'm losing my ability to speak to my family in my language and I'm losing . . . I don't know pop culture in Italy. I don't know the things that they all joke about because I don't live there.

But at the same time, when I'm here, there are a lot of beliefs that are my core beliefs that I was raised with that don't necessarily align with American culture.

I think it's really interesting, Merry, that the visa process will stop. If you age out, you're 21, but I lived at home until I was 26 because that's what Italians do, right?

Merry: Same here. You perfectly put into words so many of the feelings that . . . I don't know if black sheep is the right word. It feels like we're walking on this tightrope between two worlds, but one foot is in one world, another foot is in another world, but never really fully accepted or in either.

When I'm here with friends or in my communities in the United States, I feel like I'm not American enough because of the visa stuff, but also just cultural beliefs or values. But then when I go back home, like you mentioned, my mother tongue language might have an accent to it so I don't sound as authentic.

There are also generational sort of beliefs that I may not agree with now that I've been raised in the United States that can be contentious. I always still get into arguments with my parents over maybe some of the views that they hold about marriages or social beliefs. And I'm like, "Oh, but I don't view it this way." And then I'm like, "Oh, I'm not Indian enough I guess."

And so I totally fully appreciated what you were saying of we're just in this weird middle tightrope. I really think it's so admirable that you were able to go do this rotation, and that you wanted to do this rotation in Italy so that you could learn how to help your community, your family members back in Italy who speak Italian, and help them kind of navigate the healthcare system.

It is so challenging when you don't speak English, especially here. And so I'm sure that it meant a lot to them that you learned that language and now are an additional resource that they can lean on.

Hạ: There's a term for people like me as a Vietnamese American. It's Việt Kiều, and essentially, it's overseas Vietnamese. And so I walk in and the way I dress, the way I talk, people know I am full flown overseas.

And I think it's so interesting because I feel we exist in this . . . especially for you all more so than even me. You exist in this duality between one identity and the other. And then I also feel that we exist in this duality with the American dream, right? Because we are medical students . . . Well, I guess, Ludo, we're not medical students anymore.

Merry: You two are doctors. Fully-fledged doctors.

Hạ: We're technically doctors. But on paper, it seems as if we represent the American dream, right? Now, I sometimes sit and I go, "Wait, I basically represent . . . People like to use me as the story, this narrative, to continue talking about American exceptionalism, to continue talking about the immigrant success story in very simplistic terms instead of the complexity of what that reality is."

And my question is . . . I always sit and I go, "How do I reclaim this? How do I reclaim my story from the story that society wants to shape for me for their own gain?"

Ludovica: I think a way through which I've tried to kind of focus on this idea of Ludovica's American dream is I am a different version of what my parents wanted me to be, of what Italians who moved to the U.S. wanted me to be, of what Americans want me to be.

I think in a way I can appreciate what my parents did by bringing me here and I can appreciate the privilege that I've had by being also a white European in the United States. That's its own branch off of an American dream. But at the same time, I can still choose to embrace my roots and at the same time reshape the dream in a way that works for me.

It doesn't mean that I will always have to be the perfect student or perfect person who comes to the United States and does all these things, because I will obviously make mistakes and not be perfect. And in a way, I can also choose to improve the dream in a way.

I mean, there are a lot of things that I don't necessarily agree with, even with my role in medicine. I'm very much pro universal healthcare, and in a way, I wish we could have that and I wish I could continue fighting for my patients to have healthcare without having to sell their house. And I'll continue fighting for BIPOC communities and people that don't have the same opportunities that we have had.

So, in a way, I see it as more me reshaping my dream into helping other people achieve theirs in any way that I can.

Merry: That was so beautiful. Yeah, I feel like my answer to that is thankfully I've got incredible humans like you two who are sort of paving the way and redefining and reclaiming what American dream means too. So I'm very thankful for that.

I think, for me, how I'm reclaiming the American dream will also mean not being embarrassed of who I am. I know it sounds corny and cliché, but truly being unapologetically me and embracing every aspect of me, the immigrant struggles, the Utah . . . every part of my identity.

I feel like for the longest time, especially in my undergrad when I was here, I was so embarrassed to even share my international student status. I remember when I was writing my personal statements for med school, it was a huge internal dilemma to even share that.

I was like, "What if that will be the reason why I'm rejected or programs don't like that, that I'm not a U.S. citizen or a green card holder?" And so I would kind of withhold that information from people.

And not just even for application purposes, but even when I'm hanging out with friends. I was so reluctant to embrace that part of me. But I think I had a really life-changing mentor that I found in my junior year of college who helped me feel proud of my identity and finally told me, "No, you're going to end up where you're going to end up. So be unapologetically you. Share the things that make you uniquely you." That, for me, is my immigrant experience.

So I think one way I'm hoping to reclaim the American dream and redefine it for myself is to be proud of my immigrant experience and share that whenever I can with friends or family members or people that I interact with.

And then, like Ludovica mentioned, just embracing that as medical providers in the future, there's a huge role for us to also be civically engaged in our local communities, whether that be in policymaking and city councils or on state levels. I feel like we need more doctors in Congress and in legislature just making laws that affect our patients, that affect people in our communities.

So I think if anything, a lot of my experiences and meeting incredible people like you have sort of motivated me to find ways that I can be involved in my community, and our community city council, or policymaking processes.

It truly does matter. I feel like our new generation of youth are truly understanding how important it is for us to be civically engaged. So it's been just incredible to see that. I hope to kind of keep that momentum as I go forward too.

Hạ: I think that is so beautifully said, both Merry and Ludovica, and I feel that all of your words have been really healing for me. I feel that when I get angry about things, which I do get angry about with the idea of the American dream versus the realities that people actually do face, as you both have alluded to quite very well, I just want to do absolute rejection. When I think about reclaiming my story, I want to push back and say, "No, I do not represent the American dream."

But I think hearing about how you are thinking about transformation and rooting it in love and your identities and in your community, I find that to be so powerful. And I hope that's something that our listeners can be able to really carry forth and to really think about and see about how they want to approach it as they reframe their narratives against all of what society might otherwise tell them their narrative should be.

So, with that, I'm going to prep you all, give you a bit of time to think about it, but I would love for us to all end with a reintroduction of ourselves based off of this rethinking. I can actually do an example.

So everyone, as you know, I'm Ha Le, and I was born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah, but my second home that I identify with is with Vietnam where my family emigrated from several months before I was born. So I am a second-generation Vietnamese American.

And while a lot of my achievements in education and in being able to even achieve this MD degree can often seem like I represent the story of the American dream, I think, at the core, my successes have been built from the communities that have supported me, which is the very antithesis of individualistic capitalism and individualism that the American dream purports.

And my dream as I keep going forth is that I'll be able to continue to do work that is really centered on identity and centered on community and to really grow in a collective way, and that is my big hope for the listeners and myself.

Ludovica: Thank you, Ha. That was beautiful. I'm Ludovica Farese. I was born and raised in Rieti, Italy, and my second home I identify with is Salt Lake City, Utah, where I have been for the past 16 years.

And like Ha, even though I would represent the idea of the American dream because I came here and got into medical school and I'm now going to be a doctor, I, like Ha, was also heavily supported by my communities of fellow immigrants and my own parents.

I will continue to use this privilege that I've had of being able to study in the United States and become a doctor here to continue uplifting fellow other immigrants who are trying to achieve these same dreams.

And I will also continue to fight for all of my patients and ensure that they have the best care here regardless of their immigration status and regardless of their ability to afford medical care here. And that is all.

Merry: Man. Oh, this sucks to follow up after you two.

Ludovica: True tip. Another tip, Merry. Always go first.

Merry: I know. Now you're telling me. I'm like, "Oh gosh. Oh, man. How do I follow up on these two beautiful closers?" Well, I shall try my best.

My name is Merry Joseph, and I was born in Kerala, India. I grew up in Singapore and I moved here to Salt Lake City, Utah, when I was 10 years old. And now I consider home Draper, Utah.

I am a third-year medical student, and I am the fruit of the hard work and labor of my immigrant parents, of my immigrant communities, of my grandparents, my cousins and relatives back home in Kerala, India. I am benefiting truly from all of their hard work, sacrifices, and that's why I even have a shot at attempting at the American dream today.

And my life has been enriched and has been so much better because I've got incredible examples that have been laid out in front of me by those who are on the DACA status, by DREAMers of all kind, by Documented Dreamers from Improve the Dream, by friends like Ha and Ludovica who I get to look up to.

And my hope and dream is to continue working hard and to fight for so that healthcare is a human right in this country and that everyone in this country gets unfettered access to healthcare whenever they need it. And regardless of their socioeconomic status or immigration status, everyone here can live a healthy life.

And so I am just so grateful that I have the privilege of pursuing this profession. I can't wait to kind of continue on this journey, on this medical training journey, and become a physician so I can serve my community in the future too.

Hạ: Thank you, Ludovica and Merry. Thank you, dear listeners. If any of what we talked about today really resonates with you, we'd love to have you comment. Either private DM message us on Instagram or comment on our post about this episode. And if you do, you get a "Power from Identity" pin. It's really, really cute. I'll give you, Merry and Ludovica, one too.

Merry: I've been eyeing it.

Ludovica: Yay.

Hạ: So we'll give you those pins and they will look great on your lanyard. You listeners can't see the smiling faces of our guests, but I can and they're really stoked because the pins are that awesome.

But please, definitely listen to us wherever you podcast and thank you for all of your support.