19: Seven Steps to be a Better Listener

Scot: Troy, how are you sounding today?

Troy: Testing, one, two, three, four, five. The man with the golden voice. Just kidding.

Scot: That's you? You're the one with the golden voice?

Troy: I am totally kidding.

Scot: Wow. Somebody told you this or is this kind of self-appointed?

Troy: This is self-deprecation.

Scot: Oh, okay.

Troy: This is clearly not the case.

Scot: Give me your most golden tones.

Troy: Hello.

Scot: Really?

Troy: I'm Dr. Troy Madsen.

Scot: If you have to talk smooth, how would you talk?

Troy: Sometimes I'm like Ron Burgundy.

Scot: Hi. How are you doing? All right. The podcast is called "Who Cares About Men's Health?" That's where we talk about health, offer inspiration, and also reliable information to help you become healthier. It's time for us to take our health back, guys. My name is Scot Singpiel and I care about men's health.

Troy: And I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician at the University of Utah and I care about men's health.

Kevin: I'm Kevin Curtis, and I'm the Director of Crisis Services with the Neuropsychiatric Institute and I care about men's health.

Scot: One of the common threads when it comes to men's health is that men don't talk about it. That seems to be a common complaint and then a lot of people will take that to mean that we don't care about our health. But during a previous podcast, the issue came up. Is it that men don't want to talk about it, or is it that men don't know how to listen to other men so there's no benefit when a man talks about it?

So, on today's show, we want to learn how to become better listeners so if someone in our lives opens up to us, we can do a better job of being there for them.

I want to start out with the question"How do you rate yourself as a listener?" Troy?

Troy: What did you just say? Just kidding.

Scot: On a scale of 1 to 10, Troy rates a 0.

Troy: I get a negative five.

Scot: No, seriously, how do you rate yourself? If I was to open up to you about something, whether it be about my health or something more serious, how would you feel about your listening skills, being able to handle that situation?

Troy: Well, I think just by the nature of my work, I think over time I've learned to become a much better listener. And it's tough in the emergency department and what I do, but it's part of my job just because I'm often so pressed for time. But I have really tried, at least in that setting, and I hope it translates into other aspects of my life. I sit down in the room any time I talk to a patient, I make sure I'm not standing, and I listen.

Scot: And you're comfortable in that situation?

Troy: I am. I'm very comfortable listening to all sorts of scenarios and complaints. No matter what people are telling me, I've heard it all. So, again, I think it's a skill that I've learned over time out of necessity in the work I do. But hopefully, as a result of that, that's translated into my personal life as well. Some people might disagree.

Scot: Kevin is a licensed clinical social worker in addition to his other responsibilities. So I'd imagine you're going to rate yourself pretty high, again, through your occupation.

Kevin: I get paid to listen to people, so I've developed a skill set around that.

Scot: I'm the son of a Western South Dakota rancher. I grew up pretty much an only child with nobody else around. I am not very comfortable listening. I think I am a problem solver. So, when somebody starts talking, the first thing I want to do is help them solve their problem as opposed to listening. A lot of times, I'm not very comfortable in that situation, and I feel like I don't necessarily offer anybody anything if they were to open up to me about something.

So I don't rate myself very high. So I'm really curious to maybe learn some skills to become a better listener. Where should we start this conversation?

Kevin: I think it's important to start from a place of understanding. Whether you're talking about sports or whether you're talking about mental health or whether you're talking about anything, there's a certain set of skills that are going to be useful to you, whatever the conversation.

Scot: So no matter how light or how heavy?

Kevin: I think so.

Scot: Okay.

Kevin: We don't necessarily feel that way all the time when we're looking at scenarios that come up in our lives because there's that added component of emotionally how we feel about the topic. But I think once we can deal with the vulnerability issue and get to a place where we're ready to engage, all of the skills are going to be pretty much the same.

Scot: Okay. So teach me how to become a better listener.

Kevin: Well, being a better listener involves being less of a talker, right?

Scot: Okay. Step one.

Kevin: You have to be present. You have to be there in the room with a person. And I think one of the biggest things that gets in the way of being present is we get fixated on the idea that our contribution is the important part. So, as the person is talking, we're already thinking a lot about, "What is my response to that thing going to be?" or we're thinking, "Oh, they're saying this hard thing. How am I going to give them solution to that hard thing that they're talking about?"

And in most cases, that's not what people are looking for when they're trying to share something with another person. They're not going there to get the fix. They're just wanting to be heard and validated. And so remembering that it's not really about you can really be very helpful in terms of being present.

Troy: That is such a great point you make, Kevin. And it's something that's been hard for me to learn as a physician, because I feel like people are coming to me for answers. But over time, I've learned there's so much to be said just for listening, and I'll just listen. They have these aches and pains and everything hurts, and we've done testing and they just want to talk about it. And I tell them, "I don't have a great answer. I know it's awful what you're going through. I'm sorry. I don't have a great answer for you."

But so much to be said for just feeling like, "I don't need to have an answer for everything." And I think that does make you a better listener and more willing to listen.

Scot: They say that men and women listen and have different communication needs. I've heard that women really just want to be heard most of the time, which comes back to what you are talking about. But I've heard that men, generally, want to offer solutions but they don't necessarily want to receive solutions. So we're more like women in that way than we think?

Kevin: Yeah. I think that there are lots of aspects to this that come back to socialization and what we're trained as children in our culture to value and appreciate in conversations. And so I think you do hear that dichotomy between women want to be heard and men often are often offering the solutions.

In my professional experience, I think men have a need to be heard just as much as women do, but they don't often have that level of comfort around needing that.

A lot of times there is that barrier for men that they don't know how to ask to be heard. And then I think on the flip side, women often get really frustrated with the men in their lives when they're just trying to be heard and all they're getting is solutions. So it's an important dynamic to be aware of for certain.

Scot: So we're helping me become a better listener. Step one is talk less and listen, right?

Kevin: True.

Scot: It's not about me necessarily and what I'm going to say. It's just about being there, being present for that other person. But there comes a point where there's silence. The talking is done and there I am sitting, and it's either say something or change the subject.

Troy: But I think a huge point is what you say, Kevin, also. It's not so much just about the listening piece of it. It's creating a setting where someone can be heard. And I think that's probably a big thing for men.

I imagine when you sit down with a man, they realize, "Okay. This is my opportunity to talk and be heard." But I think so often we are unwilling to ask for that opportunity or to really seek it out.

So I think probably step one is letting a person know, "Hey, this opportunity's here. Let's just sit down and chat," whatever the setting. "Let's go get lunch or let's go get a coffee or a drink," or whatever setting that person is most comfortable in and you're most comfortable in and it's sending that signal, "Let's chat."

Scot: So even just offering somebody the opportunity is huge?

Kevin: For sure. I had a friend recently model this for me. He kind of out of the blue sent me a text message saying, "Hey, do you want to go to lunch sometime? I'd like to catch up." I knew because of my training maybe there was something more to that, because that was not a normal thing in our relationship. And my instinct proved to be correct, but it was such a meaningful conversation that really took our relationship to a different level and we were able to create more of a mutual support that happened through that interaction.

So sometimes that direct coming up to your buddy and saying, "Hey, I need to talk about something," can be really difficult. Shooting a text message, "Hey, do you want to catch up?" can be a little bit more of a pathway that's not quite so daunting.

Troy: And I think the follow-up is important too. How many times have you had that where you reach out to someone or they reach out to you like, "Hey, let's go get lunch sometime"? It never happens.

I think if you're really looking to sit down and talk with someone, you really need to make it known to them you want to sit down. You're not just offering this as a gesture. And then that's when I think you have that opportunity to be a good listener. You've created the setting. They get the message, "We're here to talk. Let's talk."

Scot: So the person's talked, I've been present, I've heard them, then silence. What's the next thing? Because that's scary, for the listener anyway.

Kevin: I would say a really important component here is you've got to get comfortable with silences.

Scot: Okay.

Kevin: The kind of discomfort that we often feel when a conversation goes silent really can be something that leads us to keep those conversations superficial and never get to the real important stuff.

There are many times where, in a therapy session, I ask a question and I let it hang there for minutes sometimes. It's very uncomfortable for me because it feels like to be in a conversation, there has to be talking going on.

And so, frequently, we fill the silences with more talking. But what that gets in the way of is contemplation and the process that I think all of us deal with in terms of "How really vulnerable can I be?" And sometimes we need a minute to really think through and choose our words and make that decision to be brave.

Some of the most meaningful conversations that I've had haven't involved a ton of talking. It's asking a question and waiting for an answer.

Troy: I was going to say . . . and this is the beauty of the baseball game. You go to a baseball game and just sit there and watch the game. And then you pick up the conversation when you want to talk. It's like you've got an excuse to be silent and you just hang out. Or even going for a drive, doing a road trip with someone. There are long moments of silence and then the conversation becomes more engaged. I think those are both great ways to really be able to talk to someone where it doesn't feel forced and where the silence isn't a big deal.

Scot: You can tell that I'm very answers-driven because I keep coming back to this, but you're having a conversation with somebody. Somebody has told you something now. They've opened up to you. And this has been my experience on the other end of it. I've opened up to somebody and I don't find it to be a satisfying experience, so then I tend not to do it.

So, from a listener standpoint, at that point after they've talked, can I make it more of a satisfying, beneficial experience? Do I ask a question based on what I've heard? Is that a good next step? So I've told you about my problem, and then now silence. What would you do?

Kevin: So, for me, I would probably go from a standpoint of maybe asking questions to make sure that I truly understand what it is that you're saying. Part of validating what somebody is feeling is having them feel like what they've said has been understood.

So there's a common technique in the therapy world of mirroring the question. "So this is what I heard you say. This is what I understood from what you said. Do I have that right?" Sometimes even something as simple as that is the thing that a person needs to feel like, "Oh, they get me. I'm here being vulnerable and I'm being heard."

Sometimes the answer is really coming from a place of asking, "Do I truly understand what the person said?" Maybe I don't have any experience with what they're sharing with me, so even a statement of, "That sounds really hard. I want to understand more. Tell me about this aspect of it," or that sort of thing.

So that's a component of what we refer to as active listening. It's about hearing what's said and then doing something that reflects either, "I want to know more," or, "I've heard what you've said and I understand it and I'm validating it."

Troy: It's interesting we're talking about this. I just had a really interesting experience just the other day completely outside the healthcare setting. Someone who's a builder who's working for us right now doing some work on our house, and I don't think he would mind me sharing this, but he really opened up about . . . we were just sitting there chatting about how the project is going and he really opened up about some personal things recently.

He didn't even know what I do for work. This had never even come up. It's not like he's like, "Oh, he's a doctor. I'm going to talk to him about this." But he had a family member die recently and was really involved in this person's care. And you could tell he just needed to talk about it and talk through how horrible this was and what he went through.

And for me listening to him, it just was a matter of listening and just saying, "That sounds awful." And he's saying, "I don't know how you ever get over this." And just like you said, mirroring that and saying, "Yeah, I don't know how you do. I think the pain eases over time, but it always sticks with you."

So it was really interesting to have that conversation with someone who had clearly been through so much and was essentially talking to a stranger. For all intents and purposes, I'm a guy who's interacted with him here and there as we're doing this project, but I'm a stranger and he needed that.

And again, it was a good talk, but I didn't want to feel like I was forcing him to say anything and I didn't want to feel like I was trying to pull anything out of him. Just listening. Just chatting. We're just standing outside, it's raining out there, and clearly, he needed to process things and talk through this.

Scot: How long do you go with that though? Again, I think it's my communication background and my background as a radio personality. I want everything to have a nice tidy conclusion at the end of it. So the first thing you do is you listen, you're present, then maybe you mirror, and you ask some questions to check understanding, to really try to understand what the other person is saying, and to communicate that back to them. Is there a next step?

Kevin: One of the tricks you can use is don't think about just validating what they've said. Also, we can validate the fact that they've been vulnerable and shared. So a thing that I might say is, "Man, that's a real serious thing you've been going through. I really appreciate you trusting me enough to share that with me." And that I think validates the try and it also leaves the door open for "This can be a continuing conversation."

It's not one of trying to throw out a solution and hopes that the conversation goes away and you don't have to talk about it anymore. It's one of life doesn't have tidy conclusions, much I'm sure to your frustration. But that point of transition of just really being appreciative for the opportunity to be there for a friend, it really leaves the door open. It closes a conversation maybe for the time being, but it leaves the door open for further conversation and for a situation where maybe later on you're able to say, "Hey, how are things going with that?"

Scot: Okay.

Kevin: One conversation doesn't have to be the solution to any of this. It can be a starting point for a much richer dialogue that happens over time.

Troy: Yeah, and that's huge. Like you said, we always . . . and that's been my thought too. Probably in radio and in healthcare just in general, you want to tie a bow on that. "Okay. What can we take from this?"

But again, that conversation I had, we just chatted. And again, it just kind of ended. It was like, "Yeah. This is awful. This sounds horrible." Just saying, "Hey, let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out," and that was it.

But I think I came away from it understanding a lot more of what he was going through and I think that certainly developed a lot of empathy. And hopefully, he came out of it saying, "Hey, this has been good just to talk about this a little bit, about what I've been going through."

Kevin: Yeah. So one other thought that I'm having around these tools is that there are some options there if you want to use the opportunity to share something of yourself.

You have to be careful with this, because it could quickly fall into that solution category where it becomes more about you trying to fix the problem. But I think you can match the vulnerability that they're showing by using some of your own vulnerability.

So I've had conversations happen where me acknowledging, "That sounds like you're going through a really hard time. You may not think this about me, or I don't know if you know this, but I've had my own struggle with depression. That's something that I've been going through." Talking about your own experience with that thing and not necessarily saying, "What worked for me is going to work for you," but just validating, "What you're going through is not something that's specific to you or that's new and you're the only one dealing with it."

Sometimes having somebody that's been a little bit further along in the journey that can validate, "Oh, yeah. That's a real deal thing. You're not a weirdo or whatever," can really be something that opens the door, not just for that relationship to grow and for that person to get support, but also for that person to maybe consider, "Oh, maybe this is something that would benefit from professional help, or maybe I can look at this other person's journey and see some things that could be helpful to me in navigating this journey that I'm on."

Scot: I'd imagine the trick of that, though, is to not make it about yourself.

Kevin: For sure.

Scot: And I think we've all been in conversations where we've opened up and then all of a sudden now it's about that other person. So, yeah, you've got to be careful of that.

Are there some other things that you . . . kind of common mistakes that people make?

Kevin: So one other thing that I think is super important is when we put too much importance on the one conversation and having that one conversation be the only time we address the issue, we get really fixed on, "I've got to say the right thing." And the focus on saying the right thing really pulls you out of the moment. It takes you away from being present and from hearing what's going on.

And so I like to think about . . . there's a concept in the therapy world of, "You'll always have another opportunity, so don't fret too much if you didn't say the right thing in the right moment." The person is going to better benefit much more from just being heard than they are from anything that you're going to say. So you don't need to be the hero of this interaction. What you say isn't that important. Having the person walk away feeling heard and validated is way more important than any advice you might be giving them in that moment.

Troy: As we're talking about this, it seems really the most important thing isn't what I'm saying. It's more of what I'm feeling as a listener. Do I feel like I'm understanding this person? Do I feel empathy toward them and toward what they're experiencing? And if you can say yes to that, great. You've accomplished what you needed to accomplish, because I think the right things to say will flow naturally from that.

Maybe, again, it's not a matter of saying a whole lot. It's more they sense that empathy and they sense that I'm understanding, and that's really what they're seeking.

Scot: I think up until this point we've talked about being a good listener in situations where maybe it isn't a crisis situation, but there are times where maybe somebody might open up to you and it's a crisis situation.

There's an example on Humans of New York that I read that really hit home for me where this individual talks about a story that they were best friends for eight years. They were neighbors. He started biking because of this best friend. They were on this 1,000-kilometer trip together. This friend knew that this other friend was suffering from depression because he told them.

They were sitting by a canal one night in August, been drinking, and then he said it. He said he felt lost, he didn't fit in, he was very sad. He knew that there was a history of depression in his family. His father had taken his own life a few years earlier, but the guy said he was uncomfortable. He didn't know how to help him.

He listened for a few minutes and then suggested that this individual talked to a professional and then after that he changed the subject. Ultimately, this person took their life.

That is a little bit of a different conversation where there might not be another conversation. How would you handle it if it gets to that point? And I would say that's probably in the minority of situations.

Kevin: I think so, yeah. That would be the exception.

Scot: Yeah. So how would you handle it at that point?

Kevin: I think the most important thing is not being afraid to ask the hard questions. It sounds like, from hearing the story, the person was seeing the risk signs. They were aware that person has depression. They were aware that person had a family member that had ended their life by suicide. So following up that question rather than a statement of, "I can't help you. You need to go somewhere else for help."

Just one that seeks to understand that's using some of these same tools that we've talked about is, "Tell me more about this. Are you feeling suicidal? Have you had thoughts of ending your life?" That can be a really important thing to do for the person.

It may be that they bring up the conversation because they want to talk about that, but they don't know how to. And so, being an active listener and really encouraging them to share that piece, even though it feels uncomfortable, can really open the door for actually getting involved in some form of treatment.

I don't want people to feel like they are the solution to other people's suicide risk. But I think in hearing the story, what I hear is a person who has regrets that they didn't ask the question or that they just closed the door due to their own discomfort.

Troy: Asking a person about suicide, do you think that potentially could push a person toward thinking more about suicide or cause more harm?

Kevin: There's tons of research about this. That is not a thing that happens. People that are at risk for suicide are thinking about it way before they ever acknowledge it to somebody else or before they acknowledge it to themselves. You're not introducing a new idea. There's no correlation between asking the question and increased risk of suicide.

Troy: And I think probably one of the challenges too, in my mind, if you have a friend or family member, of asking about suicide is if they answer yes to that question. I think then we worry about, "Well, what door does that open? I'm then obligated to either force them to get help or take them to the ER, or I'm going to feel guilty down the road if they proceed with this and I knew about this." How do you respond to that?

Kevin: Yeah. I think for me it's about meeting them where they're at. Okay, you've now told me that you've been feeling suicidal. We can validate that with, "I'm really worried about you. How can I help?" Throwing that out there and offering the assistance can really open the door for a transition from "I'm providing support" to "I'm supporting you in getting professional help."

That's not always the case. There are going to be people that, when you try to guide them towards more of a professional intervention, are going to be resistant to that. And in those cases, there are resources for getting them help even if they're not ready or willing to engage voluntarily.

So there are resources here in our own community. You can call the UNI Crisis Line at 801-587-3000. We often think about crisis lines as a place for somebody in crisis to call and get help. But the reality is a good proportion of the callers that call into that line are parents that are worried about their kids. They're friends that are worried about their friends. And there are licensed professionals that can help you navigate a process of, "How do we get this person help? Do we use a voluntary channel? Do we use an involuntary channel to help?"

Ultimately, it becomes about safety. There isn't a risk involving professionals where the person isn't quite ready to accept it on their own could impact the relationship, but I think it's about assessing the risk and recognizing, "If I don't do something and something bad happens, how will I live with that?"

So what we've found through our crisis line work and through some of the data collection that we do with that is that more often than not, we're getting calls back from people saying, "Thank you for sending the police out," or, "Thank you for helping get . . . I wasn't ready to get it, but I needed it and now I'm grateful that I got it."

Scot: It can be a scary thing to do.

Kevin: Sure. Yeah.

Scot: Yeah. So, to be a good listener, it sounds like you have to listen. You don't talk. You listen. Be present.

When it becomes apparent that you do need to say something, a good strategy is to ask some questions to make sure that you're understanding, to help feel empathy towards the person, to validate that other person's feelings, to share without making it about yourself if it's appropriate, and to know that the conversation is not necessarily going to have a nice bow on it, and actually the conversation itself is what has been helpful, not what comes at the end of the conversation, which is you thinking that you need to offer a solution or any of those sorts of things. And when you get to the end of the conversation, try to communicate in a way that indicates that you are open to further conversations.

Kevin: Yeah. I think you got that right.

Scot: Is that a good summary?

Kevin: You are now officially a professional, Scot.

Scot: Yeah, I don't know. Knowing how to do it and actually doing it are two different things, but I'm going to try to be mindful next time when I'm listening to do those sorts of things.

Troy: I think we want things . . . like you said, we want to do things right also. We want to make sure we're doing it correctly. We want answers, but I think as long as you're trying and you're willing to just let someone talk, I think you've accomplished something right there.

Scot: And be okay with silence. That's another thing I learned.

Kevin: Yeah. I think that's right.

Scot: Kevin, thank you very much for being on the show. It's great to have you on the team as an advocate for men's health.

Kevin: Sure. I'm appreciative of the opportunity to help people learn more about these topics that are so important.

Scot: Post-show time. Kevin Curtis listening. Good topic, I think, and handled very, very well. I think listening can be one of the bravest things we can do as men. The point being that to some extent when you're listening, and if you're going to be a good listener, you need to give up control, and that can be hard. It's really hard for me to do. I think it's hard for a lot of other people to do.

And there might not be anything to say. There might not be anything that you can do. And we want to solve problems, I think, as men. It might feel awkward. You might not say something because it can be scary to really get to the heart of the matter and say the thing that's on your mind.

So I think listening is not a skill that we are necessarily born with. I think it's something we have to cultivate, and I think it's one of the bravest things we can do. So be brave if somebody starts to open up to you and be a good listener.

Troy: Yeah. And don't be afraid of the silence too. I think that's a big thing, just to be able to, like now, have some silence.

Scot: I'm so excited to hear what you're going to say. That's why I'm quiet. Actually, I was showing good listening skills, wasn't I?

Troy: You were. You showed great listening skills.

Scot: Because I didn't jump in and try to complete your sentence like I did just there.

Troy: Yeah. Thank you for partially practicing your listening skills.

Scot: Yes.

Troy: But it's interesting. I had an experience in the ER recently where it was the scenario of someone who clearly we had different expectations. This person said, "I need to be admitted to the hospital." And a lot of it I was just trying to listen to them, and say, "Okay. Tell me more. What was your expectation today? What were you hoping to get out of this?"

Because so often, especially as a physician, it's like, "Okay. I'm here to give answers. I'm here to tell you what to do. Here are the labs we checked. Here's your chest x-ray, everything we've done. Everything looks fine. I can't find a reason to admit you." But just sitting and listening and just being there with him and just listening to him talk for five to 10 minutes, he seemed okay with that.

And I think for so many people, they just want to be heard. And if we can just listen to them, hear what they have to say, and I think that's the big point Kevin drove home. We don't need to have answers, and don't be afraid of not having the answers. I think more often than not we don't have the answer, but just listening oftentimes that's what they need.

Scot: Yeah. And that sounds like what you did in the ER is something else he talked about too. You're asking questions. "Well, what were your expectations? What were you thinking? How do you feel about this?"

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: Those are great questions to fall back on when somebody is talking to you as opposed to feeling that you have to tell your story or feel like you have to solve their problem. Just ask some of those insightful questions to facilitate their speaking. Sometimes that's what a good listener is.

Troy: Exactly.

Scot: All right. Just Going to Leave This Here, that's our opportunity to just to throw out a little something. It may be related to health. It might not. Troy, I'm going to start if that's okay.

Troy: Do it.

Scot: Just going to leave this here. Greta is good. Have you seen this 16-year-old girl? Greta Thunberg, I believe her name is. She's the climate activist?

Troy: I have seen some stuff, yes.

Scot: Yeah. So she's the one that had a little fiery speech . . .

Troy: She's Swedish?

Scot: . . . yep, at the UN saying that we need to get this climate change thing under control, except for her words were a lot harsher than my words were. But it really made me think about . . . we talk about the core four, which is activity, nutrition, sleep, managing your mental health. Also, a couple of other things that are recurring themes is know your genetics and if you have any kind of habits, like smoking or drinking, to be managing those or trying to eliminate those from your life.

But the environment impacts our health in very substantial ways as well. There is a growing body of evidence out there that shows that it can affect not only just cardiovascular health, but health in general. It can affect our fertility as men. So the environment is very much a part of living a healthy life.

And I admire that she is so passionate about it and I'm glad that she is on the environment side. And I need to figure out what it is I can do to perhaps be a part of that movement as well, because it is a component of health that a lot of us forget about sometimes.

Troy: It is. And I think the most pressing issue here, as the weather starts to cool down, we move toward November, December here, is air quality. Talk about a health impact. Study after study, and we've done so many studies in the state of Utah showing not only impact on our health, but we just published some research a year ago showing impact on pregnancies and increased rates of miscarriage on poor air quality days and in the days following.

So it's a huge deal, and I agree. It's frustrating because I drive into work . . . I wish was taking public transportation, but I don't. And my excuse is, "Well, I work weird hours. It doesn't work with those hours." But we've got to do something.

Scot: Yep.

Troy: I'm just going to leave this here. Here's a blast from the past for you. You recognize these guys? [music]

Scot: . . . see your eyes. Rosanna, Rosanna. Oh, yeah.

Troy: Now, were you a DJ?

Scot: That's Toto.

Troy: Not until the '90s, right? You weren't deejaying in the '80s. You were too young.

Scot: No, I wasn't. I was too young. I was listening to this on the radio.

Troy: You were listening to it. I know. This is a total blast from the past, like 1980s.

Scot: Did somebody go see Toto?

Troy: I saw Toto and it was great. It's one of those things . . . sometimes my wife and I will just go see these groups. I'm like, "Okay. I know Africa. I know that song. It's a great song." It's sort of made a comeback lately. Hearing it a lot. But we went and saw them last night at Eccles and had a great time there.

A lot of times we'll go see these old groups, like groups from the '60s, '70s. Toto is more of '70s, '80s. And it's fun to watch them because it's guys who are just doing what they love. And I hope that someday I'm 80 years old and I'm just doing what I love. And they're making money doing it too.

It's a challenge because I think we get into our careers, we get into what we do, and we always want to find our passion, and it's a rare person out there who finds their passion and continues to do that well into their 70s or 80s. But hopefully, we can all find that. Obviously, we talk about health as a passion, but hopefully, on so many aspects, we can find that and keep doing it.

Scot: All right. Time for the things that people say at the end of podcasts. So, we're wrapping up another show. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to get ahold of us, if you have a question for one of our experts or us, you can do so at hello@thescoperadio.com. And if you want to subscribe to the podcast, Troy has got the details on that.

Troy: Yeah. You can subscribe through all sorts of different platforms. iTunes. What else is there besides iTunes?

Scot: I know, right? iTunes is the big one, but people use Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play. Basically, if you go to . . .

Troy: We have SoundCloud.

Scot: If you go to the web page . . . we're not on SoundCloud.

Troy: Oh, okay.

Scot: But if you go to the web page, you'll see all the different podcatchers, or if you just Google us. And if you like the show, please rate and review. Leave an honest rating and review. That helps other people that might find this content useful find it. Thank you for listening and thank you for caring about men's health.