31: Do Those Supplements Actually Work?

Troy: I'll tell you on winter runs, you really learn to appreciate the dog poop bag. As you're carrying it, it's quite warm. I know it's disgusting, but, you know, you got to take the good with the bad. So that's the glass half full of the dog poop bag.

Scot: Fighting the misconception that men don't care about their health. This is "Who Cares About Men's Health," providing information, inspiration, and motivation to engage in your health. I'm Scot Singpiel, the manager of thescoperadio.com and I care about men's health.

Troy: And I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician, and the leader of inspiration here on the health podcast, "Who Cares About Men's Health" podcast, and I care about men's health too.

Dr. Jalili: My name is Dr. Thunder Jalili. I'm with the Department of Nutrition and Integrative Physiology, and I care about men's health.

Scot: Very excited to have Thunder on the show because today we're going to talk about supplements. Supplementing your nutrition, supplements, and exercise, and supplements to help prevent disease. And there's a lot of information out there. How much of it is actually accurate, is hard to say. We hope to kind of get through some of that stuff.

According to "The Journal of Nutrition," dietary supplements, are a big business in the U.S. There is over 90,000 products on the shelves, and they all claim to provide health benefits like joint health, or better sleep, or build muscle faster. $30 billion industry in this company. They're all very interested that you take their supplements. Some studies show that 73% of men in the U.S regularly take some sort of supplements, but do they really do anything? Troy, are you on any sort of supplementation?

Troy: You know, the one supplement I take, I take a fish oil supplement every day, and I don't know if there are benefits from it. I've kind of tried to search, and it seems like maybe there are heart benefits from it. I don't take anything besides that. There was a time, and it's not so much a supplement, I was taking an aspirin a day, like a baby aspirin, just thinking maybe it would reduce my risk of clots, or heart disease, and stop taking that. But I do take fish oil every day.

Scot: I do a multivitamin. I do a fish oil. I also take branch chain amino acids, lysine because I kind of get cold sores and that helps. I feel that helps my lip health. I don't know. And in the past, I've used creatine. So those are some of the supplements I've used. I guess the true-tell is Thunder here, our expert. Do you take any supplements?

Dr. Jalili: Kind of. Yeah, I take vitamin D, and I don't take it every day. I take 5,000 units about one to two times a week. And then, I take fish oil, like Troy. The science on fish oil right now is mixed. We can maybe talk about that later. And then, I also take a baby aspirin, so I still continue to do the baby aspirin.

Troy: Oh, you are taking an aspirin then?

Dr. Jalili: Yeah.

Scot: Fascinating. And that's for clotting things?

Dr. Jalili: Yeah, it's for clotting. And it's also, potentially, for cancer as well. Cancer prevention, I should say.

Troy: And that's a tough one. I've tried to find the research on it, and I don't know. I'm seeing more come out that says maybe it's not really beneficial in primary prevention if you've never had a heart attack or had any sort of issues. And that's kind of why I stopped it. But again, mixed evidence there.

Scot: So supplements, first of all, I mean, I guess the $10,000 question, do they work? Are they worthwhile, or am I just making my pee really expensive?

Dr. Jalili: It depends on the supplement, but most of the time you're making your pee expensive. It's probably not what you want to hear. But really, supplements are kind of a crutch to try to make up for a diet that may be lacking. So we should all really focus on our diet and making sure we get all the micro and macronutrients from diet before we turn to supplements. But sometimes that's not possible. So that's where the supplements come in. But whether they work or not is I think up for debate.

Scot: So, if there's some sort of a deficiency in your diet, perhaps supplementation might be worthwhile. What about getting like 10,000% of my daily suggested amount of vitamin C is that make me 10,000% better?

Dr. Jalili: No.

Troy: You max out at a certain point?

Dr. Jalili: You're going to pee a lot of vitamin C out. I mean vitamin C is one of those things where it won't really harm you. I mean, it may give you diarrhea if you take too much. I guess some people would consider that harm, but there's really not a lot of known benefit to supplementing high dose vitamin C. And most people will point to like say, "Well, doesn't it like reduce the duration of a cold or prevent a cold?" And the research on that is very mixed for every study that says it could work as a study says it didn't do anything.

Troy: And I should mention, I used to be a vitamin C taker as well, took it all the time because of that same thought. Like I thought I'm exposed to so many colds and diseases in the ER. Maybe it'll help prevent something. And then eventually, I thought, "What's the point?" But kind of like you said, I looked it up in the same sort of thing. Really no clear evidence that makes a difference.

Dr. Jalili: And that's the common theme actually with a lot of supplements, I should say. It's a very much a mixed bag. So it's really hard to pick things that you say have a profound benefit.

Scot: If you have a deficiency in your diet and you're taking a supplement for a particular reason, that might be okay. We'll get into some specifics in a second. However, if you can get those nutrients from food, I've read that that's actually a much better source than taking the pill. Is that accurate?

Dr. Jalili: Yes, that is a better source, and there's no downside with getting it from food. Some of the issue with supplements, like for example, there's been a lot of multivitamin-mineral studies to look at cancer, various cancers as an endpoint, heart disease as an endpoint. And most of those studies have found no benefit at all to taking, you know, whatever vitamin or mineral you're thinking of. And even some of them though have found a negative effect, and that it may increase the risk of certain cancers. So that's something very much unique to a supplement. You don't actually get that from the food. So you can eat whatever there was in the supplement that may have increased cancer risk in those studies. You can eat that in food in whatever quantity you want. It won't really have any kind of adverse effect.

You know, the food matrix is a lot more complex than we think because you have, you know, not just the micronutrients we're talking about right now, like in terms of vitamins, but you have phytochemicals in there, you have fiber in there, you have other things in there. And there's interactions I don't think we can quite understand.

Troy: I mean, that's kind of scary though because, you know, like we talked about. And that's kind of the advice I give patients. They say, "Well, should I take a multivitamin?" I say, "Yeah, you can if you want. It probably won't hurt you. But in some cases, it might hurt you."

Dr. Jalili: Exactly. When people ask me if they should take a multivitamin supplement, I say, "No, don't do it."

Scot: Wow. Really?

Dr. Jalili: Yeah. So you should stop, Scot.

Troy: You say straight up, "Don't take it."

Scot: I just got a new bottle. I don't know.

Troy: You can't waste it.

Dr. Jalili: Maybe you can sell it on KSL.

Troy: You can just put it in the toilet. That's where it's going anyway.

Scot: Just flushing it right on down there. So 90,000 supplements out there, I mean that's a lot. Out of that 90,000, are there any that when taken regularly actually do anything? Now, I noticed all three of us take fish oil. So there must be something to that.

Dr. Jalili: There is a mixed bag with fish oil. There is some of the earlier studies show that it can benefit by reducing the risk of, you know, primary cardiovascular events. But the later studies don't quite show that same benefit. So I call it a mixed bag, but there's no adverse effects of fish oil that I know of. So I take it. So hoping for the best.

Scot: It's weighing of the positive and the negative.

Dr. Jalili: Yeah. And there is a few others on that list. I would say vitamin D should be on there because vitamin D, it's really common for older people to have low vitamin D levels, and it's been linked to heart disease. And so, but that's now kind of in dispute because there has been some trials that came out recently that showed, you know, supplementing vitamin D doesn't actually prevent heart disease. But again, there's no downside to vitamin D. And when people are deficient in it, you know, they can be fatigued. So that's something else that, you know, anyone over 50 should take vitamin D.

Troy: And that's what I find so hard about supplements and dietary research is you'll find some studies that say it, and then the next study comes out and says,"You know, it's just not the case." But it's just the nature of research. You know, when we do research, you accept there's room for error. And it depends how the study is built and how it's designed. And then, like the vitamin D thing, a great study came out that said, "Hey, we did as rigorous a trial as we could really realistically design and it didn't make a difference."

Dr. Jalili: Yeah, correct.

Scot: And I think that gets frustrating to people.

Troy: It does.

Scot: And the general public because they want definitive answers. And I've kind of learned from working with you and working here, at University of Utah Health, that anybody that comes out and has a super definitive answer and doesn't back down from that probably isn't telling you the whole story, or all the truth, or might even be lying to you.

Troy: And here's the reality too. This is what they tell you in med school. They say 50% of what you'll learn isn't going to be true in 10 years. We just don't know which 50%. And that's just the nature of science and research. It's discovery, It's learning, there's error, you know? And so you can't just look at some study and someone who says, "I'm the guru. This is the answer. I know it." It's not true.

Scot: But I have a feeling, Thunder, that if I was to say without reserve unequivocally that eating healthy foods is good for you, you're not going to argue with that.

Dr. Jalili: I wouldn't argue with that. Eating unprocessed, plant-based foods is good for you. We can all agree on that. It's everything kind of beyond that that we have to be kind of open-minded, and objective about, and be prepared to change our minds if the facts change.

Scot: What about some of these other over-the-counter supplements for somebody who's interested in getting stronger or gaining muscle? Like creatine. Or is it creatinine?

Troy: Creatine.

Scot: Those are two different things, aren't they?

Troy: Creatinine is something we measure in the blood.

Scot: Okay, correct.

Dr. Jalili: Two different things.

Scot: You know, if you Google it, you'll find a lot of websites that say there's a lot of research supports that it actually does help you build strength and muscle, and it's safe, and yada, yada, yada. What's your take on that?

Dr. Jalili: I don't dispute it. So creatine can be useful for building strength. It can be useful as part of a, you know, systematic strength training routine. But I think you kind of have to look at what your goals are for exercise. You know, are you an athlete and you need to make certain gains in strength for performance in an event, or are you kind of a regular guy that likes to work out and tries to stay healthy, and does it really matter, you know, to make those gains as fast as you can? You're more just trying to maintain general health. So that's how I base, you know, my use and recommendation of creatine. I don't use it myself because I don't really care if I can lift 10 pounds more next month or whatever. I'm in it just for health.

Troy: But what about downsides of creatine? Any potential issues there?

Dr. Jalili: You know, great question. You do need better hydration when you're on creatine. So that's one issue. People have to be careful about the water they drink. Beyond that, I'm not well versed enough in creatine to know what the downsides are beyond the hydration issue.

Troy: And maybe that's what I've seen. Occasionally, I've seen a case of someone with very high creatine intake where they've come in with kidney issues and probably because they're not getting the hydration they need with it.

Dr. Jalili: Yeah. And maybe it increases risks of stones in some people because of that.

Troy: Sure.

Scot: How about involving your healthcare professional when making these sorts of decisions?

Dr. Jalili: You mean your doctor?

Scot: Yes.

Dr. Jalili: That's a great question, and maybe I'll offend Troy here.

Troy: You're not going to offend me. Don't worry. I work in the ER. I don't want people to see me.

Dr. Jalili: You know? So the thing is when you ask your doctor about supplements or nutrition, you kind of don't know what you're going to get, because it's very much dependent on the fact is that doctor really interested in nutrition to self-educate? Because the reality is physicians, and Troy can maybe speak to this, don't get that education in medical school. It's very much, you know, something of their own passion that they would educate themselves on. So, if you have a doctor who doesn't care much about nutrition, doesn't read about supplements and everything else, they're not actually going to be a good source of information.

Troy: Yeah. And that's exactly true. I do not remember a single lecture in medical school on supplements, benefits of supplements, downsides, etc., etc., not one. So it's not something that's part of the standard medical curriculum. It's kind of like the culinary medicine. And if you have an interest in that, some physicians are going to pursue that and do some elective and residency, and may know a lot. But you're right, it's going to be a mixed bag. I already told you my advice on multivitamins, and clearly I am messing that up. So I need to rethink what I'm telling people about that.

Scot: I have a feeling that this conversation is really done. And I'm going to summarize what I think I understand. Get your vitamins and minerals from real whole food sources. That is absolutely the best way to get those vitamins and minerals. If you have some sort of deficiency, perhaps then some supplementation might be recommended depending on what that might be. I don't know where would you go for more information on that?

Dr. Jalili: You know, I feel that there are some good sources of information out there about supplements. You know, like the American Heart Association, American Cancer Association, American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, or the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, they all have websites with information that, you know, the public can access and read. I think those are great places, you know, to go for info. Beyond that, if you're just kind of trolling the web, it's kind of hit and miss. You may find some areas that have reliable information and some areas that are just going to steer you wrong.

Scot: And don't be looking for hope in a pill, I think is the other perhaps big takeaway. Like, you know, I have low energy so I should take these supplements because that'll help me. Well, maybe I should examine my diet, my exercise, my sleep habits first because those would have a larger impact.

Dr. Jalili: Correct.

Scot: Those types of things.

Dr. Jalili: The foundation of our health is going to be rooted the diet. You know, that's the foundation that the house is built on.

Scot: Amazing how it comes back to the core four, Troy.

Troy: It really is.

Scot: You got to watch your activity level. You've got to watch your nutrition, you've got to get some sleep, manage that stress, know your genetics, and then of course, if you smoke or have any other sort of habits, you should quit those and do those things first. Don't start the creatine to get stronger. Check your diet first, it sounds like, to maybe start working on that if you're just a regular person.

Dr. Jalili: And have actually a good workout routine to get stronger before you add the creatine.

Scot: I think a lot of us are hoping that's going to be the one thing that's going to make the magical difference, but you know it is what it is. Thunder, thank you very much for being on the show and caring about men's health.

Dr. Jalili: You're welcome. It was a pleasure to be on.

Scot: I think we're getting close to wrapping up the contest and doing the giveaway for the direct-to-consumer genetic test. And we've been talking about these tests and all the different kind of angles that go into it. This is possibly a good angle. The direct-to-consumer test, 23andMe, may have used your DNA to develop a new medication. So this is from a website called thehour.com, and you know, they collect all this DNA information when people send in their DNA so you can find out where you're from and what your ancestry looks like and your health issues. Troy, maybe as somebody who does research here at the University of Utah Health, you can explain to me and our listeners how valuable this massive amount of genetic information that 23andMe has collected, and how they could turn that into creating new drugs to cure diseases as they did here according to this article.

Troy: Oh yeah. I mean, it's huge when you start to get millions and millions of genomes in there, and people have answered questions about their health conditions, you can then look at those that have a certain health condition, and do some sort of surveillance of their genetic sequence, and find genes that are correlated, you know, in common with those people. And then, you can develop drugs to target those specific genes.

And so I think that's what they're looking at doing here is looking at the answers you give saying, "These are my health conditions." Finding the genes that are associated with all those who answered yes to that question, and then, targeting those with specific gene-based therapies.

Scot: According to this article, 23andMe has 10 million users in their database. Many of them have also answered the questions that you talked about so they can take a look at their genetic information and these answers as questions. And as a result, they think that they may have come upon a potential drug for people suffering from psoriasis. Now 23andMe is not actually going to develop that drug. They sold all this information to a drug company who then will take that and actually, possibly, turn that into a drug. So, I mean, that's kind of cool. Right?

Troy: It does seem really cool. And it's pretty amazing to think that that's what they're doing with this database, that they have so much information they can start to do this thing. They're actually developing, you know, gene-based therapies, or targeted therapies based on the genetic sequences they have available.

Scot: Of course, the other side of this, of not being so cool is this could make any of these direct-to-consumer genetic testing companies extremely wealthy and powerful. Because how valuable is this data really?

Troy: And it's unbelievably valuable. I don't know of anything like it. Just imagine a database of 10 million people. Like we try and work with databases, and a lot of research we do have maybe a thousand people, or 2,000, or 3,000 people, but 10 million people. Talk about big data.

Scot: So, you know, of course, anybody that's taken a 23andMe test will get a little cut of that. Right?

Troy: You think so? No.

Scot: Actually, in the terms of service, that's one of the things you say that you are going to give up.

Troy: And you paid to be part of that database by paying for the test. And now, the data, you know, they're using that for potentially profit.

Scot: So there's, you know, a huge ethical issue here, you know, who should own this information, and for what purpose, you know? Should it be for the general good of people, or should it be for the general good? And making some money as well. So producer Mitch actually has done a direct to genetic to consumer test, and you have gone through these different settings. I mean, you can opt your information out.

Mitch: Yeah. And that's kind of where . . . When I first read this article, I was like, "Awesome." Right? Because when you first do the test, and it comes back, you click all these buttons that are like, "Yes, I want to know my history. Yes, I want to know whatever." But the other thing that they do is they're like, "Hi, we have the opportunity. You have the opportunity to opt-in, and share your information and help us come up with some amazing cures in the world." And I was like, "Oh, yeah. That's what I want to be a part of." Like if my DNA is going to tell me how much Neanderthal I have, then it's going to help save the world in one way or another. Right? But in my mind, I was thinking this data was going to be given to the NIH or these public databases that would help things. And so, when I get this little email saying, "Your information may have helped, you know, get a cure for psoriasis." I'm like, "That's awesome." And then, you read that next bit and they sold it to a company, right? It's a moneymaking, for-profit type of sale that doesn't make me feel super good.

Troy: And that's what's so hard for me as a researcher because I'm asking people every day through my research associates who work with me, who are trained to, you know, talk to people about the studies we're doing. We asked them to provide their data, their information, their health information, and let us access their records for research. We're not making any money off of it. We do disclose any funding we have. But it's, you know, so it's kind of like, yeah, I want people to be part of research and share that information for discovery. But at the same time, man, the database they have is massive, and the potential to make money off this with this sort of thing with these gene-targeted therapies seems like it's pretty incredible potential. And that's probably why the test is so cheap. I mean, what does this test cost out of pocket?

Scot: I think the more advanced ones are around 200 bucks. A lot of times they run sales where they're 100 bucks. So I'm sure that this subsidized it, right?

Troy: I'm sure.

Scot: The play is to get the data. That's the true value. Not the money from people value buying the tests.

Troy: That's the value. I read a book recently called "The Age of Surveillance Capitalism" that talks about that.

Scot: Wow.

Troy: And it's a paranoid book. It makes you very paranoid about anything social media, but it makes that point that the value you bring, that's why all of these things, these different platforms are free is because you are the product. I mean, your information and what it collects from you, that is truly the value that these companies have of having tons of information. And I'm sure the same applies here where I don't think they just said we're just going to sell tests. They said we see the spin-off of this, and potentially drug development.

Scot: Absolutely.

Troy: And profit from that.

Scot: I struggle with what to do with this information now that I have it, like, I don't know if you advocate that these companies also need to give back, you know, a certain amount of this data, in the interest of the public good. I mean, I understand the need to make money, and all that, and what they've done is they have brought together a great database, but I don't know what the answer is.

Troy: No, it's really tough. I mean, I think they put this out there to say, "Hey, look what we're doing. That's good." And probably some people will say, "Well, yeah." I mean, you're probably developing an incredibly expensive drug for psoriasis, and you're making a lot of money off it. And you know, I want to see more, okay, how are you saving people preventing heart attacks, and strokes, and really saving a lot of lives. Then if you started to see that, maybe you'd feel a little better about it. I don't know. It's like I said, I have very mixed feelings as a researcher, as someone who uses data, who appreciates people who consent to have that used, but I'm sure they looked at developing this as potentially a way to make a lot of money.

Scot: You can opt-out if this bothers you. I think it's fairly simple, Mitch. Is it fairly simple? Have you gone through that process?

Mitch: Yeah, I looked into it. It's kind of simple. You have to go through . . .

Scot: You can Google it.

Mitch: You can Google it. You can go through the settings and stuff, but it's not just a button to press.

Scot: So yeah, depending on how you feel about it, you can certainly opt-out as well.

Troy: That's the good thing. But it is kind of weird that the default is that you opt-in, like if someone comes in the ER, the default is not that they're being part of our research. We ask them, and we go through a detailed consent process, and then they sign the consent form knowing that we will use their information. So that's where I agree this is mixed feelings like I said.

Scot: Read those terms of service, if it concerns you.

Troy: Yeah, read the terms of service.

Scot: If you don't care, then you're not listening now anyway.

Troy: Turn this off.

Scot: All right. It's the section where we update you on what's going on on the show. We haven't come up with a name yet. We're calling it by default housekeeping.

Troy: It's the post-game report.

Scot: Troy calls it the post-game. What will you call it, Mitch? Do you have a name for it?

Mitch: I mean, it's technically housekeeping. I mean, that's the general term for it.

Scot: I don't know. But anyway, I wanted to update you on the pushup challenge from last week's episode. This is more of a thing to Mitch. So on one of our previous episodes, we discovered that there's good research that shows that men that can do 40 or more pushups have significantly, like 96% decreased chance of having a cardiovascular incident. By the way, Troy, does that essentially mean a heart attack?

Troy: It does.

Scot: Cardiovascular incident. That's just a nice way . . .

Troy: That's probably what they're referring to.

Scot: So we did a pushup challenge on air, and we have video of that. Anyway, I just wanted to share that and if you haven't listened to that episode, that one is a ton of fun. And you can also learn how to do some pushups.

Troy: They learned how they do . . . I think it's important learning how they did in this study. If you just try and do 40 full extension pushups, that's hard. But these are one per second.

Scot: I mean, which is what I did.

Troy: That's what you did. That's what we did.

Scot: I mean, I did full extensions.

Troy: Well, you did full extension. You are a different level than the rest of us.

Scot: You know, how many pushups I did in the presidential fitness challenge back in the day?

Troy: Oh, I can't even guess.

Scot: Zero.

Troy: Zero?

Scot: That was the reason I did not get the . . . Well, actually, I think I did better on pushups than pull-ups. Pullups killed [inaudible 00:23:27].

Troy: Pullups, those are brutal. He did though. I remember that. Those were hard.

Scot: All right. Housekeeping item number two.

Troy: Oh, you mean, post-game report item number two.

Scot: Whatever. I want to do a health update with Troy because in episode four we talked about you and a running injury that you have that really discouraged you.

Troy: Incredibly.

Scot: So you're a runner, you like to run marathons, you generally run a marathon distance or a marathon every month. This injury really kind of killed your marathon time. But you had told me off-air that you qualified for Boston again.

Troy: I did.

Scot: You haven't even run the first one that you qualified for.

Troy: No. I've got that in April.

Scot: At the Hawaii marathon, and you ran really well. So talk about briefly that. The process of getting back just getting back from, you know, really frustrated to being able to do that. How did you do that?

Troy: No, it was tough. So the injury you're referring to I was trail running. I tripped. It actually pulled my shoe off when I tripped, came down, hit my left foot and broke the fourth toe on my left foot, which is now a little bit curved because I ran another eight miles on it after that. Really pulled my hamstring, and then I found over the next couple months as those injuries got better, I had other stuff that I didn't even realize at the time, like knee pain, hip pain, that just wasn't as obvious. So I was working through those things. I had several races after that, just nothing that was great. And I just kind of wondered, you know, is this really going to be something I'm going to get over? I even had questions, "Do I want to keep doing this? Should I just start biking, or do something else?" But I had a great race in Hawaii.

Scot: How did you get to that point? Was it just perseverance, do you think?

Troy: I think so.

Scot: Just sticking with it?

Troy: Yeah, perseverance, lots of, yeah, just stretching, and working through the injuries, and foam rolling and you know, just saying, "Hey, yeah, this stuff's going to hurt, but I'm just going to keep going." And I try to look at running as, you know, as physical therapy. Like we talked with Keith about our physical therapist. He said, "Keep moving, keep going. If it's not going to make things worse, just that motion, and keeping moving is key to rehab." So I tried to keep that in mind. I just tried to keep running consistently and I was happy about it. It kind of made it all worth it. Over the last nine months, it's been a little bit of a struggle.

Scot: And I know it was a little dark, so I'm glad to see you coming out in the light. And I think that the story that you tell is just good to just remember that you get discouraged, but it's just kind of keep working through it. Just keep doing your thing. And you framed it even in your mind that running is not about competing anymore. Like it kind of became that for you. It started out as a way to stay fit. It became competing. You got hurt. You had to kind of reframe it back to, "This is just about being fit." And then if you stuck with it, you know, you're back. So congratulations.

Troy: Well, thank you. And that's how I tried to approach that race. I didn't go into it saying, "Hey, I want to qualify for Boston again." It was more like, "I just want to have a good race." I said, "I just want to feel good, have a good consistent race." And that was the thing that mattered most to me.

Scot: All right. Just going to leave this here. We might talk about health. We might just talk about something random. Just going to leave this here. Troy, I have a question for you. Have you ever gotten dog poop in your nose?

Troy: You know, I've been exposed to a lot of dog poop over the day, over the years. I just had dog poop on my leg two days ago.

Scot: It's not your nose. Have you ever had it in your nose?

Troy: Nose? No. Not that I can remember. Me quite possibly, but not that I remember.

Scot: Took the dog out for a run. Dog does his business on the run. Put it in a little poop bag. I run at night. I'm just about ready to wrap up. It was a cold night so I had my gloves on. So I'm carrying this poop bag. It's bouncing around. I've never had this happen. I started getting like some stuff on my nose, like some snot, so I take my glove to wipe it and immediately . . .

Troy: Oh, that's bad.

Scot: So what happened is the bag had kind of broke open, and it was all over my glove, all over my jacket, all over my pants. I didn't realize that at the time. So I get in the house, I take off the gloves and throw them outside. I washed my hands.

Troy: You didn't realize you had dog poop on your nose?

Scot: Oh, no. I knew that right away. And that doesn't go away anytime quickly.

Troy: It's going to stick with you.

Scot: That lingers even after you've scrubbed your nose and your facial hair. So anyway, not a fun experience. I would recommend against it.

Troy: Now I've had more dog poop incidents than I care to recall. So I'm just going to leave this here. I don't know what it is about whoever designs men's restrooms that they think men are okay with just not having dividers between urinals.

Mitch: I know. It's the worst.

Troy: Whose idea was that? Like I went into a restroom recently at a national park and there were five urinals. So one guy was already there. He was at urinal number four. So I naturally chose urinal number one. Another man came in, and he was having to choose between urinals two, three or five. So he chooses two, saddles up next to me, and it's just like, you know, like these urinals are just right next to each other and you're just like, "Seriously."

Mitch: I know. It's the worst. I hate that.

Troy: Seriously, there's like no divider. You go into airports, you're getting splashed. It's just, like, whose idea was that? This is just my pet peeve, like just put dividers between the urinals and it's not difficult.

Mitch: And it's full-size dividers. Not these little half dividers. I don't want to have to . . .

Troy: Sure. Give me a full, but I'll take a half. Something.

Scot: I don't know. Do you remember back in the day when you'd go to sporting events, and it was just the big huge center trough?

Troy: Well, here's the deal . . .

Scot: It wasn't even a trough. It's like this big circular thing, and you just go in there . . .

Troy: Everyone just stands around . . .

Scot: And you're all just facing each other peeing into this trough.

Troy: I don't know if you've ever been to an Oakland A's game. I know you're not a big baseball fan, but the Oakland A's on the upper level, it's just this long trough, and it's just a bunch of dudes standing there. And I was in there and there's this guy with this boy, and he's just telling this boy, "Just look straight ahead, Son. Just look straight ahead." It's just like, "Seriously, why?"

Scot: Hopefully, those are lessons we won't have to teach anymore, and we'll move to a more civilized bathroom society.

Troy: Someday. You'd think we'd get there, but we're not there.

Scot: Time to say the things that we say at the end of the podcast, which is, first of all, thank you very much for listening. If you get a chance, please subscribe. We're on all the major podcasters.

Troy: We are. We are on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play. You can also find us at our website, whocaresmenshealth.com. Check us out on Facebook, facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. Get in touch with us and let us know what you like, what you'd like to hear. Hello@thescoperadio.com, and thanks for listening, and thanks for caring about men's health.