May 31, 2022

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Scot: Troy, I've got a question for you.

Troy: Yes.

Scot: Are you emotionally available?

Troy: If I even knew what that meant, I would know how to answer it. Let's start with that first. I don't even know what you're asking me, Scot. Am I available to your emotions? I don't know.

Scot: Mitch, are you emotionally available?

Mitch: I guess it's how . . . I think I'm more emotionally available than I once was, but again it's . . . Yeah, I don't know, man. Maybe.

Scot: Troy, it sounds like Mitch knows what that means.

Troy: I know. Mitch apparently got past Step 1, which I haven't.

Scot: We might have to defer to him. This is "Who Cares About Men's Health," giving you information, inspiration, and a different interpretation of men's health. "Emotional Availability: I Guess It's a Thing." That's the name of this episode.

Today's crew. He brings the MD. It's Dr. Troy Madsen.

Troy: I'm trying to be available to you, Scot. Yes, I am here physically. I don't know that I'm emotionally available, but I am physically available today.

Scot: The BS to his MD, that's what I bring to the show. My name is Scot Singpiel. And he just generally makes the podcast better, it's Mitch Sears.

Mitch: How are you doing today, Scot?

Dr. Jones: Very nice.

Mitch: Look at me. Emotionally available. Boom, boom, boom.

Scot: And that lady voice you hear on this very manly podcast is one of my most favorite people ever. She is the host of one of our sister podcasts or brother podcasts. I don't know if they have a gender really. But "The Seven Domains of Women's Health." You can find that on thescoperadio.com. It's Dr. Kirtly Parker Jones. Welcome, Dr. Jones.

Dr. Jones: It's an honor to be here.

Scot: All right. Troy, I'm going to tell you how we ended up at this place of emotional availability. We were on Dr. Jones' podcast about men and crying, which, conveniently, when we told you about it, you're like, "Oh, I've got something that day."

Troy: I promise I did have something that day.

Scot: Yeah, I'm sure you did have something.

Troy: I did.

Scot: So Dr. Jones brought up . . . she said, "You know what?" We said, "We'd love to have you on the show. What could we talk about?" And she said, "Well, why don't we talk about emotional availability in men for their partners?" And Mitch and I are both like, "Yeah, that sounds great." And then Mitch and I both went to Wikipedia to find out what that meant, and we still don't know.

So, Dr. Jones, let's start right there. What does being emotionally available mean? And how does that tie back into health, men's or otherwise?

Dr. Jones: Great question. It might mean things to different people differently, but I would consider that emotional availability is a state of mind where you are able to recognize the emotions in your own self. Then you might be willing to express them, label them, and help regulate them. And then, with the practice of understanding your own emotions, you are more able to understand, or at least listen, to the emotions of your partner.

So, developmentally, it's been suggested that because girls are raised to be like their mothers -- now these are old-fashioned developmental theories -- they are more tied in with their mother's emotional state. Boys are raised to be more like boys, therefore not like their mother and therefore somewhat distant.

So you can say that the issue of emotional availability is a new one, but it's as old as "men are from Mars and women are from Venus." It's the difference between men and women. And I think that those sexual stereotypes need to be thrown away because there are certainly women who are not emotionally available and there are lots of men who are.

Troy: So why is this referred to as emotional availability? Because it sounds like it's a lot more . . . like you said, really the first step is it's more emotional awareness, like understanding our own emotions, and I guess then it makes us available. But sounds like it's a lot of awareness involved.

Dr. Jones: It is. You have to be emotionally available to yourself first. So there's some work to be done or you need to raise them that way in terms of your children. There's a great Crosby, Stills &Nash song, which none of you have even heard because you're too young. "Teach your children well, their father's hell did slowly go by." So I think we need to teach our children to be emotionally available by our own examples and by verbalizing how we are feeling, and so our children can feel.

Once you are emotionally available to yourself, then you are more willing to be emotionally able to listen to, reflect, work with your partner's emotions.

Now, I consider it kind of a girly whine. "You're not emotionally available to me." But in fact, if you're not emotionally available to yourself, this concept of emotional intelligence, then a lot of anger, fear, anxiety goes unaddressed, and it makes people sick. Their immune system doesn't work so well. Their blood pressure goes up. A lot of chronic diseases in men might be tied to inner frustrations, anger, fear, anxiety that they aren't labeling, expressing, and able to process.

Now, when you live with someone, it's nice to be able to at least empathize when circumstances make them sad and reflect on them. You might ask your partner, "Would you like me to be emotionally available to you?"

Scot: Oh, boy.

Troy: Yeah, that was going to be my next question for you. How effective is this really? And do you recommend it? I totally get being aware of our own emotions and recognizing them and acknowledging them, but it seems like it may not go over super well if we're saying to our partner, "You seem really angry right now." I don't know. "I sense a lot of anger."

Scot: As Dr. Jones was talking, Troy and Mitch, I'm sensing this recurring theme that we've talked about, right? That sometimes as men, we don't recognize what our emotions are. We don't label them. We don't really think, "Well, why am I feeling this?" We don't sit with them. We don't want to deal with them, right? And we know the detriment that has on our health, but I'm starting to see that maybe that could have detriment on relationships, which ties back in to emotional health again.

Before we get to Troy's question, Mitch, you wanted to ask something?

Mitch: Oh, yeah. As you were explaining being emotionally available to yourself, it really kind of rung true with me because I've been starting my own little mental health journey. And one of the things that I kind of ran into is one of my very first meetings with my latest therapist was like, "Hey, I have a tightness in my chest. I don't know what I'm feeling. I can't think straight, whatever." And it took him talking me through the physical sensations to recognize the emotions that I was feeling. He's like, "You sound like you are anxious. You sound like you are worried. You sound like you're whatever." It's like I couldn't even recognize that in myself, right?

And what was interesting about it is that constant anxiety, that constant kind of stress and worry that I was experiencing, but not recognizing, I wasn't aware enough to figure something out to fix it.

And secondly, it was taking a real impact on my health. I was having everything from problems with clenched jaws, to higher blood pressure, to all sorts of issues that immediately started to change as soon as I started to at least recognize the emotions and was able to start problem-solving, which I think is the step I was trying to jump to without even recognizing what the problem was, like a typical man.

Dr. Jones: Wow. Mitch, that's amazing.

Scot: Do you feel a little like a Neanderthal that you're like . . .

Mitch: Yes.

Scot: . . . "What is this strange emotion? Oh, it's anxiety."

Mitch: I do.

Scot: To me, it sounds silly, but you know what? I found myself in that same situation, too. It's kind of crazy, isn't it, that we wouldn't know what these emotions are?

Mitch: Well, I felt dumb and embarrassed almost. Luckily, I love and trust my therapist, but there was this kind of situation where it was like, "Ugh, what do you mean? Of course, it is." I've been dealing with this for a year now, and, "Oh, of course it is. Duh."

Dr. Jones: Well, remember, for men, they may have had it modeled. So the only primary emotion, which is love and happiness, and fear and anxiety, but the only one you may have seen exhibited in your life was your father's anger, or maybe your mom wasn't available either. So that's the only one you've got that you might actually have a label to, because you saw the men around you get angry. And that one you get, but there's a lot more inside.

Primary emotions are ones that immediately cause a physiologic response. And if you have the physiology, but you don't have the word, then you can't really dig down into why this is happening. Is it good or is it bad? I mean, I hope you kind of know when you're happy.

Mitch: Sure.

Dr. Jones: I hope that one comes up and you're like, "Wow. I feel happy," instead of, "Gosh, why does my chest feel a little bigger and why do I feel I can have more air? Oh, maybe I'm happy."

So you may not have had it modeled for you. It may not have been taught to you, or bad things could have happened when you were growing up that made you stuff everything down. So, for men and for women, the difficulty of being emotionally available to yourself is that you either didn't have it modeled or you stuffed it someplace because it hurt.

And those kinds of things in a relationship . . . I think your concept, Troy, if you say, "Gee, you look like you're angry," what I have learned from my husband and a 50-year relationship is that I cannot guess what he's emotionally feeling because sometimes I guess wrong and it does not go well.

So if I say, "How are you feeling?" or, "Are you feeling something hard right now?" then he might tell me. I want someone that when I start to cry or when I get upset about something can come over and at least put his arm around me. He doesn't have to say, "Oh, I see you're so sad because something has happened to our son," or your car isn't working, or whatever. At least I want him to come over and recognize that I am feeling sad or I'm feeling anxious or worried, and he'll put his arm around me, which says, "I know you're not feeling very good right now and I'm here for you."

So that's what being emotionally intelligent . . . I want him to at least recognize when I'm in emotional distress. And likewise, if he's in emotional distress, I'd rather not walk around the house on tenterhooks thinking, "Oh my God, what is wrong? Is it my fault? Is it his fault? Whose fault is it? Did I do something wrong?" It's better for me to kind of know.

You don't get to 50 years together unless you've kind of, sort of worked things out, unless you're just strapped down and you have no choice.

Troy: It sounds like then you're saying in terms of emotional availability, it's one thing for us to identify the emotions in ourselves, but it's maybe not the best idea to try to identify the emotions in others. But at least make ourselves available to them and at least tell them that maybe something seems off and at least open the door if they want to talk about those emotions that they're experiencing.

Dr. Jones: Exactly. Because if you come up to me and say, "Gosh, I think you're angry," that's going to piss me off.

Scot: No, no, no.

Troy: Even if you are angry.

Scot: It's always a question. "How do you feel about that? How are you feeling?"

Troy: Exactly.

Mitch: One of the things that I had trouble with for a long time is I'd be . . . I'm a chronic projector, and I'd be like, "Are you mad at me?"

Dr. Jones: Exactly.

Mitch: "Are you mad that I did something like this?" Then I'm also assuming, right? I'm assuming you're feeling a certain way and I'm also assuming that it's my fault, right? And that's not a good dynamic to have with anyone.

Dr. Jones: No. Don't assume that you know what they're thinking. But being emotionally available means, "I feel like something is hard right now. Can we talk about it?" or, "Is there something I can do to help you with this sense at being unease, lack of ease?" "Well, yeah, the planet is exploding and there's global warming and we're getting shot in streets and . . ." "Wow. Yeah, boy, that is awful. Do you want to talk to me about that some more?"

Scot: So what I'm getting here, emotional availability, first of all, as men, we have to begin to recognize our own emotions and identify things other than anger.

And I loved what you said. A lot of times we talk about when you need to seek a health professional, whether that be a licensed clinical social worker or somebody else. And a lot of times, as men, we talk about to have some tools to deal with things.

But I think another thing that Mitch just pointed out is to maybe start recognizing emotions that we've never been taught about as men before in some instances. A lot of men maybe have, and I think things are getting better. I don't know if you'd agree or not, Dr. Jones.

Dr. Jones: I do.

Scot: Yeah, as we move forward. I can speak from my own experience. I came from very stoic people. So I probably don't know half the things I feel most of the time. So the first thing you've got to do is recognize your own emotions, and then that's when you can start to become emotionally available to somebody else. Show us what that might look like.

Dr. Jones: Well, how it might look like in yourself, it's what I call the RULER project, which we've done a podcast on actually, which is recognize that you're feeling something that's uncomfortable or something. You're feeling something. Understand what it was. What was the trigger that made you feel that way? Can you label it? Can you give it a word? Can you explain it or express it to others?

That's the step that . . . if someone in my family were upset and they said, "I'm just feeling upset. I'm feeling so sad," or, "I'm feeling really angry," those are the kinds of things that really help someone not get in your way. Or, "Can I help you with that?" or, "What can I do to make this better?" which you probably can't, or, "I want to hear about this because you're important to me."

That's what it looks like when someone is able to say, "This is what I'm feeling and it doesn't feel good," or, "This is what I'm feeling and it feels really good," or, "I'm really happy. And it makes me anxious because I'm so happy."

And then the other person is able to then say, "That explains why you've been stomping around the house all day," or whatever. That kind of opens up a little bit of a dialogue so that people can value each other.

And for guys, in particular, for who modeling emotional intelligence has not been really made clear to them, there's been a lot of shame. So if you feel anxious or if you feel sad or if you feel fear, it's not been okay.

When I look at the uber sort of masculine men on movies, those guys are just . . . I think of the new Jack Reacher. I think, "Wow. I would never want a relationship with that guy. I see his anger. Boy, oh, boy. But I don't see anything else in him."

So I think that many people, men and women, are looking for a long-term relationship, which means, "I want someone to be part of my emotional life, not just my physical life. Not just my cooking or the house that we share. It needs to be a little bit more than that."

Now, once again, not all women are terribly emotionally available, and some men are very. And for some women, they may attach themselves. Women say, "Well, why do I pick these guys? Why do I keep picking these guys?" Well, they also may have this kind of distance modeled for them in their father and it's all they know.

Or they think that not showing emotions is strength and they want to attach themselves to strength because they are anxious. They're not self-confident. They want that burden laid on the guy in their relationship or the other person in their relationship. And having one person be the strong one and the other one being the emotional one. That's kind of hard. You ought to share this stuff.

Mitch: I had a question kind of relating back to mine. I love the RULER technique. I think that, for me, I really appreciate acronyms and strategies and whatever. But that L, that label, I have run into feelings that I don't have a name for, and the best I can do . . . And it's probably modeling and I have to work with my specialist to kind of figure out what it is. But you come up with, "I feel oogie. I feel meh. I feel blah."

And so is there . . . I don't know. I just feel like such a novice here where it's just like, "Is there a guide?" Is there something that I can see all the feelings I could be having or emotion should I should be having and I can kind of point to that.

Troy: It's like the pain chart, the little kid pain chart. "That's my pain right there."

Mitch: The sad face.

Troy: The sad crying face. Yeah. We need the equivalent for men's emotions or something.

Dr. Jones: Well, there actually is an emotional wheel.

Mitch: What?

Dr. Jones: So the people who looked at primary emotions say, "These are the ones that have physiologic consequences and they're immediate." So they happen to you even before you can give it a label. It just is an immediate response fear. Maybe love, happiness, anxiety, you know when it happens because it happens so fast. There are secondary emotions which are combinations of primary and secondary emotions.

Now, what they might feel like? Any strong emotion can raise your pulse and raise your heart rate. Although true Agapeic love, I think, actually can make your . . . I mean, the love of a child, the love of a very good friend can bring your blood pressure down. Holding hands with someone that you love, that actually brings your blood pressure and your pulse down. And they've done this in MRIs and they've looked at what parts of the brain are activated.

Getting a good therapist is a really . . . You say, "I don't know what the name is I'm feeling, but this is how I feel. This happened to me, and this is why I felt like that." If you could say how you feel and you understand what made you feel like that, you might be able to come up with words.

Oogie, I need a little help with oogie. I got oogie. I can kind of feel oogie. I feel oogie below my diaphragm. It's not above my diaphragm. I don't feel it in my heart. I feel it below my diaphragm. Well, what were the things that made you feel oogie? If you told me what made you feel that way, I might be able to put a label on it.

But there is a very beautiful wheel, emotional wheel, that gives people a . . . I can send you guys a link for this and you can work on it, if you'd like. You can spin it around, see how you feel.

Scot: How do you start that conversation if you're the partner and you're thinking . . . Well, actually it could go either way, right? So you're the partner and you're thinking, "You know what? I would like to explore this idea of emotional availability in my existing relationship." Or you're the partner that maybe you're thinking, "I wonder if my partner actually would find more satisfaction in the relationship out of this." I mean, it could work either way. How would you start to progress forward? Because even that name carries baggage, right? Emotional availability to some people could sound . . .

Dr. Jones: It does. It means somebody isn't. It means blame, blame, blame already.

Scot: Or it could just be like, "Oh, that's touchy-feely, I'm not into that."

Dr. Jones: Well, you can just say, "I've been thinking about this." Either one, the person who's got more emotions or the person who's got less emotions, "I've been thinking about this and our relationship is important to me. I do or don't want it to be . . ."

"It's uncomfortable when you cry at the table, but I don't want to shut you off or I don't want to be blocked off from you. So I'd like to learn how to talk about this." This is the guy who sees his wife cry about stuff or his girlfriend or his boyfriend or whatever, and he just doesn't get it. But he loves this person. So, "I see you cry and I need some help. I need some words. Are you willing to work with me about that?"

And then if you're the person with more emotions, "I've been thinking about this and I love you and our relationship is really important to me, but I need to feel that you're tied with me to the things that I feel strongly about. Can we talk about it? I cry at the table because I'm sentimental. All we have to do is talk about my family or our son, and I start to cry, and I don't want you thinking it's sad because it's not sad. It's sentimental. Can we talk about what words I use and how it might make me feel and what I want from you when I feel like this?"

So I think it's better than rather than saying "you" words . . . You guys already know this. "You do this, or you don't do this, or you are feeling this." It says, "This is the way I feel. And can we talk about it?"

I think it would be good if we had a long-term relationship based on the support of each other's feelings, not just our physical needs, or our financial needs, or our spiritual needs, or you name it. I'll go through all the 7 Domains without you guys even knowing it.

Troy: See, Dr. Jones, I want to take a moment here just to put this in perspective. Our most recent episode was on poop.

Dr. Jones: Yeah. And you know what? Your emotions can come right through with your poop, because people who are really anxious can get diarrhea.

Troy: I'm just saying this is hard even for me to think about it. So I am empathizing with any man out there right now who is listening to this and hearing you say these things and saying, "These are things we can say to our partners." This is a stretch. This is tough.

And I agree. I have definitely taken the approach of, for whatever reason, you kind of push emotions down. And it's hard to acknowledge those emotions in a partner and ask them to express those emotions. I think maybe we are afraid of what they're going to say, or we're afraid of being responsible for those emotions or triggering those, or whatever it might be. But yeah, this is a lot harder to talk about than poop. I'll say that.

Scot: So, Troy, question.

Troy: Yes.

Scot: Question for you, Troy. All those things that Dr. Jones just said, if that was coming from your spouse, would you, as a man, with your history, cringe a little bit? Would you be like, "Oh, boy, here we go. I don't know about this. This sounds pretty intense"?

Troy: I would cringe a bit. Yeah. I will say, honestly, I feel like . . . and maybe Laura will disagree. She'll listen to this and be like, "No, you haven't." I will feel like I've made progress there.

I think, like you said, Dr. Jones, the key to this is just acknowledging your own emotions. Often, I've really tried to acknowledge more, "Okay. When am I feeling anger? When am I feeling anxiety? And what's the root of that?" And a lot of times it gets down to, "Oh, I'm sad and it's coming across as anger," or, "I'm anxious. I've got a shift coming up in the ER and I'm feeling anxious about it. And that's coming across as, again, maybe as anger." It seems like a lot of these things come out in men as anger, and I've definitely felt that in myself.

Dr. Jones: They do.

Troy: But again, hearing you say those things, I think, for me, emotional availability has been trying to be more aware of my emotions, and often what the root of . . . Even what may seem the emotion, there's a deeper root to that. And then be willing to express that and talk about it. But it's hard.

Dr. Jones: It is, but the work is worthwhile. Maybe Mitch can even speak to this. It gives you a much broader palette with which to paint the tapestry of your life. When you have some words, some colors to explain the things that you've seen . . . You have a powerfully rich life, Troy, in what you've seen and how you deal with that, the words you use or how you color that, what an amazing life you would lead if you had a little bit of contact with those.

Mitch: And from my perspective to "man it up a little bit" is another tool in the toolbox, right? No, if you don't have the right socket, you can't fix a certain thing on your car.

And so, for me, I knew that I was not in a good place and it wasn't until I was able to actually recognize, discuss, and talk about, even to myself just in my head, the emotions I was feeling, there was no way for me to actually start to work to fix it.

And so if that's the very baseline of at least my . . . Yes, I'm living a more full life. Yes, yes, yes. I feel it every day. But for a part of me, not feeling like garbage all the time and being able to know that I'm taking active steps to fix it, and all it took was a bit of acknowledgement and a bit of vocabulary, has been night and day within the last year.

Dr. Jones: Yeah. Amazing.

Scot: Would you say that there are two aspects . . . I'm picking up two aspects of emotional availability. I think Troy has kind of hit on one, right, which is a man's ability to talk about what they're feeling, thinking, etc. But it's also a person's ability, whether a man or a woman, to be receptive to the emotions of another person. And we haven't really hit on that as much. How can somebody start to work on that?

Dr. Jones: Well, I think once you've learned . . . getting back to starting with yourself, if you can forgive yourself . . . When you say, "This emotional response is normal. It's natural. It's real. I'm an intact human person, and I forgive myself because I felt angry or sad or whatever," then when you realize that someone is feeling that way . . .

In fact, it's often not about you. I think you're afraid you're going to get the downstream effect if you recognize, or at least, "Gee, it looks like things are harder. I feel like you're having a hard day. What can I do for you?" And if they break down and cry, then just go put your arm around them. You don't have to do anything bigger than that for a start. And then if they unload all of it, just say, "I'm listening. I hear you." That may be all that it takes.

Scot: So instead of avoiding it and pretending that's not going on in your life, maybe just acknowledging it would be a good first step.

Dr. Jones: Or don't analyze it. "Boy, I got into trouble." "Oh, I see why you're so angry." "Boy, you could be angry because your dad did this and then your boss did that and you're feeling inadequate. Boy." No, that does not go well because that's all those "you" words. "You're feeling this and you're doing that."

Say, "Wow. I'm so sorry. Can I sit with you a little bit? Talk to me about it." Don't try to analyze. Let them use their words. Just let them know that you're seeing and you're hearing and you want to be there with them, whatever they're feeling. You're not going to run away from it.

Scot: Let's wrap this up. Troy, what did you take away from the episode and what's something that you're going to try based on what you learned today?

Troy: You're putting me on the spot, Scot.

Dr. Jones: Never, never, never do it.

Troy: I know there's someone is listening to this episode.

Mitch: Oh, no.

Scot: What does that somebody want to hear?

Troy: This is really putting me on the spot. That someone probably wants to hear that I will say exactly what Dr. Jones said. Number one, I will not say "you." I will not use a lot of "you" words, which I sometimes have a tendency to do, like say, "You seem angry," or, "You seem sad." And rephrasing that as . . . I wish I could remember exactly how you said it.

Scot: That would be helpful.

Troy: Yeah. "Something seems off." I will say it that way. I'll say, "Something seems off. Is there anything you want to talk about?" Maybe rephrasing things that way and being willing to say that, first of all, and then saying it the right way.

Scot: How about you, Mitch?

Mitch: I feel good that I'm kind of on a journey. I keep using that word. It's so overused. I'm just glad to know that the kind of work that I'm doing right now can lead to a more colorful, more interesting life, and recognize that, as an individual, I feel a lot more than just anger, right? And being able to recognize that, talk about that. I'm hoping that my relationships can be a lot stronger.

Dr. Jones: Yeah, and especially your relationship with yourself. The inner voices that you have that aren't always supportive, they're not always nice voices that you hear, and saying, "Wait a minute. That's not me. That's my inner voice that's saying, 'You're not good enough,' or you're this, that, or the other." Being able to forgive yourself for when you feel a certain way so that you can process and move ahead and take a deep breath. Take 10 deep breaths. It's just a lot easier. You will find yourself feeling better. Mitch, you put it better than I possibly could.

Scot: I think the thing I'm going to take away is I tend to ignore other people in my life, meaning when . . . I don't want to ask, "Hey, something doesn't quite seem right. You want to tell me about it?" because I'm afraid of what I'm going to hear, right? I'm not going to be able to deal with "I'm sad" or "I'm angry" or "I'm whatever." But I think I'm going to try to be brave, and I think I'm going to try to start acknowledging that and doing that and seeing how that works out for me.

Dr. Jones: Be brave. I think about that.

Troy: I like that. Yeah.

Dr. Scot: The firefighters who ran toward the burning building of 9/11. Be brave. Being available is being brave.

Scot: We'll do that, right? Men will run towards the danger like that. But if we think that somebody we care about is angry at us? Oh, man, we're not going to bring that up.

Troy: And I'm also going to say I will not tell whoever this individual is, who I happen to be speaking to, that I'm running toward the burning building on 9/11.

Mitch: Oh, no.

Dr. Jones: Don't do that.

Troy: That would not go over well, but it's a good analogy. We do have to be brave.

Scot: Well, Dr. Jones, I think this is a step in the right direction hopefully for any guy that wants to maybe become more in touch with their own emotions or be more supportive of the emotions of those in our lives. And sometimes our best lessons on the men's health podcast come from wise women such as yourself. So thank you for caring about men's health and being on the show with us today.

Dr. Jones: You're so welcome. It's been great.

Scot: Hey, congratulations. You made it this far. You even made it beyond the end. This is Scot from "Who Cares About Men's Health," and it just dawned on us that if the topic we talked about in this podcast is something that's important to you, and you'd like to perhaps get some emotional availability in your relationships, and you don't know how to have that conversation with your partner, use this podcast as a tool.

Tell them you heard it. Let them listen to it. That way you're starting from some sort of a common place. And then let the discussion go from there. So use this podcast as a tool and share with somebody in your life that you think could benefit from it.

All right. That's it. For real, we're gone this time. Thanks for listening. Thanks for caring about men's health.


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