17: Body Fat

Scot: Testing one, two, three, four. What did you have for breakfast this morning? Don't tell me a banana.

Troy: Testing one, two, three, four. That's what I had for breakfast. So no surprises there.

Scot: You put peanut butter on it?

Troy: I did not put peanut butter on it.

Scot: Just grab a banana and go.

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: Why a banana for breakfast all the time? Why? Why is that?

Troy: Today, well, usually, when we're here, it's because I was eating as I drove in, and a banana is easy enough to eat as you drive in, so . . .

Scot: You've hired other fruits to do the job, and?

Troy: Yeah. I just, well, I eat a banana. Sometimes I'll eat an apple on the way in, but it's usually a banana, so.

Scot: Apples are messier.

Troy: Yeah, apples are messier. Bananas are easier to eat.

Scot: And then you've got . . . Well, you've got the core, but you've got the peel, what you do with the banana peel, just throw it on the floorboard?

Troy: No, I usually I've got a napkin, I wrap it up, and then I toss it as I'm walking in here. That's my routine, all right?

Scot: Who cares about men's health? We're building a movement here of men who are proud to say they care about their health and our part offer some inspiration and some good information. It's time to be engaged and take back our health, men. And I'm Scot Singpiel, manager, thescoperadio.com, and I care about men's health.

Troy: And I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician at the University of Utah, and I care about men's health.

Dr. Galli: Dr. Nick Galli, Associate Professor in the Department of Health, Kinesiology and Recreation. And I also care about men's health.

Scot: You know, we talked about health turning points is a big part of the show. Like, when was that moment you realize that maybe some changes need to be made? I think sometimes we tend to oversimplify it as this one definitive moment. For me, it was a lot of different moments. It was some tests that I got back at an annual physical, it was some, you know, just observations I made in my world. And one of the big parts of it was the day I had my body fat done.

And I think that the body fat percentage is something that is crucial that everybody really should know for a lot of reasons, and I hope to make the case for that, and I hope, Nick, you'll help me do that as well. So I had my body fat done in the past when I was much younger, so I had a general idea of where it was at one point. When I was younger, I was a skinny kid, it was like 9%, right? I wanted to put on some weight, so I kept monitoring that, I didn't want to put on fat. As I started getting older, I noticed that number going up, you know, 12%, 15%. At one point, it was close to 20, and then I brought it back down.

Many years have passed, and when I had it done, it was 29%. And I was looking up online to find out, you know, I was in shock, like, right, I was blaming everything else. But it helped me with a lot of fitness choices that have led me to being a healthier person right now.

So first of all, let's talk about why body fat is bad. Because body fat's not good.

Dr. Galli: Yeah, so I think one of the reasons that we know it's bad is especially that excess body fat that we carry, subcutaneously, so under the skins and around the organs. So, for men, the belly fat is a predictor of heart conditions and other health problems.

So that's the number one reason that we should care about it, is that it seems to be a predictor of heart problems.

Scot: Yeah. So if you can control that, then you're less likely.

Troy: See, I'm coming at it from a different perspective here, guys.

Scot: That's okay.

Troy: I have never had my body fat tested. I have no idea where I fall on those percentages. I know there have been times I've had more body fat. More times, I've had less. I guess, for me, I mean, I'm not so much of a numbers guy in that sense, where I really worry about what is my exact number, like, I know how I look. I know how I feel. There's definitely times I'm healthier than others, so I don't know. I guess that's my question. Is this something for everyone or more for, you know, high performing athletes, or is this really something we should be advocating for everyone to get tested?

Dr. Galli: Fair enough. Let's get to that. I mean, as far as the detriments of excess body fat, though, you can agree there are some.

Troy: There are, but I guess I wonder too at the same time, do we sometimes, you know, if I were to get my body fat tested right now, let's say I were at 22%, would it just be frustrating for me even though not knowing that number, I'm happy with my health right now. I'm happy with how I feel, with what I'm doing to work out. So I guess I worry that that absolute number may be more detrimental or I just feel like, "I'm doing all this, what's the point?" I don't know.

Scot: I want to throw out a couple things here. Excess body fat is bad according to CDC for a lot of the reasons Nick said. Indicator of heart disease and stroke, certain types of cancer can be caused by having excess body fat, sleep apnea, osteoarthritis, fatty liver disease, kidney disease, I mean, hip and knee problems.

Troy, you're saying you should just be able to look at yourself and go, "I have excess body fat. I'm, you know, I have the chance for some of these things to happen." Maybe a test isn't what needs to happen.

Troy: I worry that some . . . Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's worth talking about.

Dr. Galli: I hear what Troy is saying. Because even though, you know, in my view, it's probably a superior metric for assessing health than simply weight which, you know, everybody checks their weight. I still think anytime a numbers involved, we run the risk of becoming a slave to that number and becoming very rigid about it, which can lead to, you know, mental health and physical health problems, you know, that go beyond the number.

Scot: Yeah, because body image is one of your areas of interest. So you're kind of getting into that now a little bit.

Dr. Galli: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because genetics are still a factor here. And some people have the ability, even for the same type of lifestyle to get their body fat into a range that other people just can't, and maybe they're still perfectly healthy. They just don't fit into that box that the CDC says.

Scot: Yeah, it would be interesting to see if there's any research that says that, you know, body fat is, you know, getting that body fat checked is good. I can only speak from my perspective. When I got that number, I'm like, "Okay, I know what I need to do now. I want to get rid of this excess body fat." It gave me a goal. I was able to go and take a look, because they give you the range. They're like anything above 20% is excess body fat. I was at 28 to 29, right? I wanted to get that under 20.

So I was able to start to put a plan in place, and it motivated me to want to watch my diet. It motivated me to get out, and exercise, and be more active. And then it was very motivating when I went in 12 weeks later, and I actually saw that number go down. Like for me, that was a big part of me being able to make day-to-day decisions that helped to lead me to losing a lot of body fat.

Troy: And maybe that's really what it comes down to. It may just be it's additional piece of information, and maybe you are looking at yourself saying, "Mm, I kind of feel like I'm a bit overweight," and then having that actual number gives you something to work toward to, you know, try and bring that number down. It gives you an actual metric where you're not trying to use BMI, or just looking in the mirror, or looking at your weight because you are putting on muscle weight meanwhile. So, in that sense, it definitely makes sense.

Scot: Well, that was my fear though, is I consider myself skinny, fat guy. And what that is, I don't have a ton of lean muscle mass. So like with my clothes on, people would think, "Oh, why are you . . . Why do you want to lose weight?" Right, so normally, that would be something that would make me, you know, reconsider that. But I knew what the number was, I knew I had this unhealthy fat on me, and I was concerned about losing lean muscle mass.

And not only do you get the percentage of fat, you also get, you know, your lean weight as well. So I was able to see after 12 weeks because I did some weight training along with my aerobic exercise, I'd actually gained a pound of lean mass. Whereas most of the time, when people diet, they lose that, and then that becomes a problem because yo-yo dieting, explain what that is.

Dr. Galli: So yo-yo dieting is when people will lose large amounts of weight in usually in a pretty short period of time, and then gain it back almost as quickly, and then do that, you know, many times, which some of the research suggests is actually more unhealthy than just being a consistent overweight.

Scot: Or really? Yeah, because you're losing that lean mass during that yo-yo phase.

Dr. Galli: And it does something to your body, you know, it does something to your body to continually be gaining and losing large amounts of weight.

Scot: So the argument is, does it help or not? We don't really necessarily have any research. Troy is not the data guy. I'm the data guy, so, of course, we're kind of falling along character lines here. Talk about if somebody is interested in getting their body fat, what . . . like I did a thing called a BOD POD. Is that a pretty good way to check out?

Dr. Galli: BOD POD is probably the gold standard at this point. So if you have access, you get to . . . It's an interesting experience, Scot, as you can probably attest, it's a goalie basically, it's a giant egg. Looks like a giant egg. You have to strip down and be in skintight, wearing a speedo with a swim cap so that your body takes up as little volume as possible in this capsule. You go inside, you know, it's kind of airtight, so you even got . . . I don't know if yours did, but when I've gone through the BOD POD, there's like a panic button for people who get really claustrophobic.

So you're in there, and basically, they're looking to see the volume of air that that your body takes up, the density. And from there, there's calculations involved that depend on your gender, age, race that will give you a pretty solid estimate of your body composition. So, as you said, that would be your both the lean mass and fat mass.

There are other ways. I would say the BOD POD is probably not the one that you're every day person would necessarily have access to.

Scot: Yeah, I have access to it because, through our insurance here, we have to do some extra things to get the discount, and one of those extra things is you could do a free BOD POD, because we have the equipment here, I guess.

Dr. Galli: Exactly.

Scot: But, I mean, you know, I think it can be a little spendy. 40 to 50 bucks.

Dr. Galli: Yep. So there are more options now. I mean, now, really for the last 15 years or so, we've been able to go to the store and get the scales that will also give you, or the handheld devices that will give you a body fat. And those are called bioelectrical impedance. So, yeah, you either hold on to it, there's these little sensors you hold on to or if it's a scale, you step on. It sends a very small current of electricity through your body, and then depending on the time that it takes that current to move through your body, it will give you an estimate of your body fat.

Reliability on those, you know, again, if you are going to take your body fat with that, you just want to make sure you're using it same time of day, you know, everything's just got to be the same. You know, you've eaten the same stuff, just to make sure that at least, you're getting a reliable number across time. Even if it might not be the most valid indicator, that's probably the most accessible.

And then the other one are the skin fold calipers that maybe somebody some people have had experience with, where they pinch your skin. Not the most comfortable, and then there's these, you know, calipers that the person will pinch across the skin fold, which measures subcutaneous fat. They'll do that across all several different sites on your body. And you get all these different measurements of subcutaneous skin fold fat in millimeters, and then you plug those into an equation and you get body fat.

And those can be pretty valid, depending on the tester. If the tester is well trained, you can feel pretty good about it. If it's a newbie, someone who's not done it before, you probably don't feel great about, you know, whether that's actually valid.

Troy: And it sounds like the easiest thing to do is the electrical sort of thing. You know, you don't have to rely on someone else to do it, you don't have to set up an appointment to get the BOD POD done, but you're saying maybe that's not super accurate?

Scot: Well, can I jump in? So I have a scale now, it's really old. I think I bought it in 2001. So maybe technology's gotten better with these things. It was drastically different than the BOD POD, like . . .

Troy: How different? Because you were at 27% or 28%.

Scot: Well, the scale had me somewhere around 20 to 22 pretty consistently. And then, again, I would do it at different times of day, and my BOD POD had me at 29. So, I mean . . .

Troy: That's a huge difference.

Scot: It is a huge difference.

Dr. Galli: So you would use a tool like that more as a . . . at an intra-level. So, you know, even if the number you get, you know, is maybe 5% off, and you acknowledge that, as long as you're controlling for everything else, you can just use that number as your baseline and say, "Okay, it says I'm 23. I know that's probably a little bit under, but I'm going to use that 23 as a benchmark and try to get it down to 21."

Scot: Yeah.

Dr. Galli: That would be the way that I would suggest using those biological impedance.

Troy: And you find those at least are consistent from measurement to measurement.

Dr. Galli: Exactly.

Troy: So if you're using it to track . . .

Dr. Galli: As long as you're doing everything to control for that, meaning, you know, you've eaten the same diet, you're taking the measure the same time of day. If you've had a lot of salt, that affects the numbers, because that kind of bloats you, and it change . . . Yeah, so, you know, it's . . . You've got to be very mindful. You can't just willy-nilly use it and expect, you know, that it's going to be consistent. You've got to really take precautions to make sure that you're keeping everything constant.

Scot: And with my experience with that, it's almost like weighing yourself too.

Dr. Galli: It comes like that.

Scot: You have to look at the overall long-term trend. You can't go one day, "Oh, I'm this, and now, I'm 2% heavier," and let that stress you out.

Dr. Galli: Yep, there's day-to-day fluctuations in body weight and certainly, body fat as well, you know.

Scot: There's another method that I used to use that I discovered through the Zone diet, where you measure your wrist circumference. And you measure your waist circumference, and then they've got a table of formulas. Actually, I think there's even an online calculator where you can enter those measurements in. I found that to be surprisingly accurate for me. What . . . Do we know anything about that?

Dr. Galli: Yeah, we call those girth measurements. And, probably, the most common one that we use in terms of body composition are the waist, and also the waist to hip ratio. So, of course, you know, you would hope that your hips would be wider than your waist. So you when you're calculating a waist to hip circumference ratio, you'd like that number to be under one. And there's different standards for men and for women because women's hips tend to be wider.

So the waist to hip is the one I have the most experience with. And some folks will use that ratio in combination with other measurements such as body fat percent to get a more complete picture. I think Troy said something important earlier. It's all about, you know, having multiple data points, and I think this is something that maybe we talked about the last time I was on. You know, you don't . . . Try not to ever rely on just one indicator of your health. Try and collect multiple data points, so it's a combination of weight, body fat, circumference measurements, and then to me, you know, importantly is what's happening in your blood.

Scot: Sure, those tests.

Dr. Galli: And the lipids, and glucose.

Scot: And then also, like, what's your physical state like? Are you able . . .

Dr. Galli: What can you do?

Scot: Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up, because even I was getting just focused in on this one thing, right? And that's only a minor part of when we talk about the bigger scope of men's health.

Troy: Yeah, I mean, I was actually going to say it sounded like you have used this as one data point, maybe you did get a little more focused on it at one time where that's was your primary focus. But, you know, it doesn't make sense to somebody to track your progress in addition to your, you know, if you're running, or biking, your aerobic capacitance and your strength, if you're doing weight training as well. My only concern is, you know, if you get really focused on this one thing, particularly if you're already doing things, you're feeling good about what you're doing, you get a number, and it just says, "Wow, I've got it. You know, my body fat percent is 25." This is, you know.

And I guess that's my concern. That can create a lot of frustration, and it's like, "What's the point of it?" you know. But sounds like in big picture of using it to track things, that make sense.

Scot: Well, for me, too, I got that first reading. And then I did some things to change. And I came back in, and that second reading wasn't that much better. And I mean, for me, that really then told me, "All right, I guess I'm not quite as serious about this as I thought I was or I'm not doing quite the right thing." So I made some adjustments, and then the next one, again, 12 weeks later, not that much better. So then I reached out for some help. And as a result, then, I started making some progress.

So it wasn't the first couple, and I can see how it could be easy. And maybe you need to know your own personality well enough, but for me, that was like I did go out of there going, "Well, oh, boy," but then I was able to regroup and go, "All right, what are we going to do?"

Dr. Galli: I also suspect that some individuals are just more responsive to some lifestyle changes than other people. Some people have to make more drastic changes in order to see the numbers shift than other people. I mean, I think some people are just more sensitive than they are able to make those changes, and for other people, it's more work. And I think a lot of us can relate to that. For some of us, it's just harder.

Scot: It is. Another thing for me, Troy, that I like about it is, again, I come back to the skinny fat guy thing. I can't tell you how often I get people saying, "Oh, you're losing so much weight, you're too skinny," right? And knowing my body composition, knowing my pounds of fat, my pounds of muscle is incredibly useful in those situations, because I can say, "Actually, I appreciate that. But I've lost 15 pounds of fat, which is not good for me. And actually, I've put on three pounds of lean mass, so I'm healthier now than I was."

And I think this is a body image thing. I read somewhere, I think it was the Washington Post talking about how our body image, the perception of what a healthy weight is has been consistently going up over the years. So I think that they are seeing me with different eyes, so then they think I'm getting too skinny.

Troy: If you're a healthy weight, probably, people are going to say you're too skinny. It seems like that.

Scot: Well, yeah.

Dr. Galli: Because we've now become, you know, used to bigger bodies.

Scot: Yeah, yeah.

Troy: Bigger bodies. The clothing industry has changed the sizing to adjust for that as well, so that's interesting that you're hearing that, I don't know.

Scot: So, for me, it was a useful tool. You work with athletes. Do you work with regular people that also use body fat? What are you seeing?

Dr. Galli: Yeah, I have worked with a few more recreational base clients or clients who are just trying to get in better shape. Some have used body fat as a tool. I'd say weight is still predominant. I'm in favor of anything that gets people doing the right things. It sounds like body fat was that for you, Scot. As with any assessment or metric, it's all about how it's sold, how it's handled, and how people understand it, and the way that it's done. The same tool such as body fat could be measured in such a way that it could be a major turnoff for certain people.

Or if you've got somebody who's pinching your arms to feel how much fat, you know, just not with the calipers, just, you know, walking around then that becomes, you know, not such a good thing. But if it's used in a the right way in concert with other measurements, I think it's a useful number to be aware of.

Mitch: Can I break in?

Scot: Yes. Producer Mitch. Come on to the microphone.

Troy: I hear Mitch. Mitch from overhead wanting to join us. Here's Mitch.

Mitch: Oh, I guess . . . Oh, by the way, I'm Mitch, and I care about health, men's health. Because I hear, and I look at you two, and you both are runners every single day, you're very active, you're relatively healthy, you care about your health. I'm someone who's been one of these people that struggles, right? I am right now at age 30, the thinnest I've been in most of my life, right?

And I've been using my little smart scale at home to kind of look at my body fat and, you know, it's not the greatest. Right, and I'm kind of using that as a potential benchmark to get healthier, right? So, I guess, when we're talking about body image, when we're talking about this, when we're in this everyday person, I'm 30, I'm just starting to care about my health, I'm just, for one reason or another, you know, I'm just starting to get really active. How do you keep someone motivated? How do you keep someone, you know, thinking about do you do numbers? Do you say how you look in the mirror? Like, what is that way to get people on that keep them motivated to get to that healthier place?

Dr. Galli: Yeah, I think, first, find out what resonates most with you, what number you seem to care most about. Having awareness of what the discrepancy is between where you are and where you'd like to be, where you should be, and so that's where, you know, a health professional would be able to help you determine that or a dietitian.

And then sort of have, you know, we talked about, you know, stair step goals and making sure you're setting the right goals, and not expecting huge changes in a short period of time, seeing it as a process. But also paying attention to not just the number, but also the feelings that come along with the change in the number. How does it make you feel? Do you have more energy? Are you just feeling like you're in a better mood? You know, to me, that's more important than the numbers per se, but I do think there's a lot of satisfaction that can come with seeing the numbers, you know, drop, but you have to understand that at a certain point, it's not going to drop anymore. That's the danger.

Troy: And I guess that's where, for me, I'm kind of the other . . . maybe the other perspective here on this, where I have a hard time with the numbers just because I think sometimes, they can become frustrating. But I think if it becomes, like you said, where really the motivation is, what am I getting out of this? How do I feel? Like, I feel healthier, you know? Just doing whatever may be, you feel healthier, maybe you look in the mirror, you feel like you look better.

I worry that sometimes numbers, you know, if we're seeking that, it can become frustrating because we're going to plateau at some point. You know, at some point, you're going to get to a body fat percentage, maybe you're at 17%, you're not going to lose any more. But I think if your primary motivation is "Hey, I just feel good doing this. I'm happier doing this." I think that in itself, where there's just intrinsic value in what you're doing, not necessarily what you're trying to achieve, I think that really becomes what sustains a lot of activity and exercise.

Dr. Galli: I think because we've seen such a problem with overweight and obesity in our country. Having some focus on these numbers has become somewhat of a necessity in the short term because people just don't know. Long-term, you know, I think what we'd like to see is folks just be able to check in with themselves and kind of know, have an intuition about where they are, rather than have to rely on this other outside benchmark.

Mitch: Well, and I guess that's my question. So I'm, again, never really been thin. But I'm stepping on the scale, since . . . actually, it's almost embarrassing, but since editing this podcast, that was my turning point. We'll have to talk about at some point, but like, I'm actually down quite a bit of weight, but I'm down to 22%. It's the lowest I've ever been in my entire life.

And I guess my question is, at the start of our discussion today, we were talking about how body fat is a negative thing, right? It is something that impacts your health at 22. Am I healthy? Should I keep shooting for lower? I mean, or is it, you know, it's one thing to feel healthy, but if body fats are really a real thing that can impact your health, what do we got to be? Is there something to shoot for? Do we need to look at those numbers?

Dr. Galli: I mean, that's where you rely on some of these ranges that you can access that the CDC puts out and other organizations. And for men in their 30s, you know, I think what they're saying is upper teens. 20% is kind of that [cut-off 00:24:15]. As you get older, you know, something that happens when you get older is you carry more fat. That's just what happens. But, you know, as you said, I think what's more important, Mitch, is that you're seeing a decline from where you were, and if it feels better, if it feels right, I don't know that you necessarily need to shoot for another 8% drop, right?

Like, it's this, you know, the American fascination with, "Well, if losing a little bit as good, then more is better," and that's not the case. You do hit a point where you're kind of in your ideal, and maybe that aligns with what the CDC says, or maybe it doesn't quite. And I think that's okay.

Troy: And maybe that's the value in it as well. It's a really validating what you've done and what you're probably feeling anyway. I mean, I imagine you're feeling healthier. I mean, you feel like, you know, you're losing body fat and you get a number to validate it, and the absolute number may not be the important thing, it's more of that progress. And I think, probably, Scott, that's what you notice as well. You saw the progress, and it was in combination with everything you were feeling as well as you're exercising and getting that value out of it, too.

Scot: I want you to do the BOD POD, Mitch, because, you know . . .

Mitch: Oh, yeah. I got it scheduled.

Scot: You point at me and you say, you know, I'm super healthy, and I'm a runner, but, like, I'm still above 20%. Last time I checked, I'm still above 20%. I don't look like it, right, at all. So I guess that just goes back to . . .

Troy: But here's the challenge, though. Because I'm hearing you say this, and you seem frustrated by it. But you're a healthy guy. I mean, the stuff you eat blows my mind. The stuff you bring into work, like, I look at what you eat. You're doing weight training regularly, you're doing cardio regularly. I mean, you're healthier than 99% of men your same age.

Scot: Sure.

Troy: That's just the reality.

Scot: Yeah.

Troy: So that's, you know . . . So, I guess, that's kind of the tradeoff. You're still frustrated, clearly, because this number is still above 20% or hovering around 20%, but you're in great shape.

Dr. Galli: There's no one number that's that important to be. There really isn't, and then the other thing that I keep hearing you say, Scot, and I think that this will be common is "You wouldn't know by looking at me." I think looks are . . . We can get ourselves into so much trouble with subjective aesthetic base view of health, because that has also been skewed by the media. And even somebody who meets the clinical definition of health in terms of their numbers, they may not pass the eye test or the reverse, so we have to really be able to separate what some people call aesthetic fitness or health from metabolic fitness or health.

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: Oh, I guess what I'm getting at, I feel like maybe I've been misunderstood. You wouldn't know by looking at me right now that I am carrying that kind of body fat. That's what I'm saying, not that I am not healthy. And that's what I encounter a lot in my life, is people are like, "Oh, you're too skinny the way it is."

Well, I mean, but you bring up a great point, like, what is this range? 20% or more has been considered excess fat. There are some other guidelines, but maybe when Troy said you bring in some other consideration.

Troy: Yeah. Where do these numbers come from? How accurate are they?

Scot: Well, I hope. Yeah, I hope from someplace smart.

Troy: Yeah, they're these based on longitudinal studies, where they said people at this body fat percent, 30 years down the road are more likely to have heart attacks. Accurate body fat measurements haven't been around long enough, I think to really know that.

Dr. Galli: Yeah, well, that's very true, right? It all goes back to the methods and how the data was collected. The other thing that people need to be aware about is that being underweight or under-fat can be as dangerous as being overweight or over-fat.

Scot: Yeah, when we talk about these health detriments, we're talking . . .

Dr. Galli: These are windows.

Scot: . . . an excess of body fat. And as you said earlier, it's not necessarily less is better. There's a good healthy range.

Dr. Galli: Absolutely. Yeah, and even for men, you know, of course, men don't need to carry as much fat. There is an unhealthy lower range where, you know, for the average man to be consistently, like, you know, 5% body fat. I can't speak to all the consequences of that, but, you know, that's not what we would consider to be healthy.

Troy: Have you ever seen someone at 5% body fat?

Dr. Galli: Those are those are generally bodybuilders or very high-level athletes that would be down that low. Not sustainable for most people.

Scot: Yeah, not at all.

Well, thank you very much, gentlemen for this conversation. If it works for you, then, you know, go out and get that body fat checked. If it doesn't work for you, Troy, then you don't have to, although I'm dying to know.

Troy: I'm just . . .

Scot: I'm terrible, and I'm dying to know what his body fat is at.

Troy: It's going be like 30%. See, now, that what it becomes, it becomes a competition.

Dr. Galli: Especially with social media now. People will share this stuff openly. That's a whole other podcast.

Troy: So I'm just intimidated by the idea of, like, walking around in a speedo and a swimming cap and getting in this egg that's going to get claustrophobic and I just going to be hitting the panic button. I can't do it. I can't do it

Dr. Scot: It's not that bad. It's not that bad.

Dr. Galli: It smells, though.

Troy: Oh, great.

Dr. Galli: Well, it smells because of the components. Sorry.

Troy: You're really talking me out of it. I'm very sensitive to smells.

Dr. Galli: It's not pleasant.

Scot: Gentlemen, thank you very much for a lively conversation and debate. And thank you, Nick, as always.

Dr. Galli: My pleasure. Happy to be here.

Scot: . . . caring about men's health.

Time for the post show. Body fat, you've not been sold that that is a great thing to do. Because, I mean, I am such an advocate for it. If you put me in charge of the world, and in charge of fitness, I would say that that is a number that everybody should know, this is as important as your cholesterol or your blood glucose. Not a lot of evidence supporting that, though, is there unfortunately.

Troy: I know. That's the hard thing for me. And the big thing for me is, I kind of don't want to know, you know. It's like one of those things where I feel good about where things are right now. Like, maybe five years ago, it would have been good for me to have this number to basically say, "Okay, I think like I'm doing pretty well," but I looked in the mirror and I looked at my weight, and, you know, this seems like, "Yeah, I'm a bit . . . you know, I'm putting on some weight. This was, you know, five years ago, but right now, I feel good."

So I kind of don't want to know the number because then, I'll say I'm doing all this stuff and my numbers is not as good as I think it should be. But, maybe, it would prompt me to change some more things with my diet. I don't know. I'm not convinced.

Scot: I think my takeaway is, for me, it worked, but also, I just need to keep in a perspective that range, right? Just because I might still be above what they're saying, you know, that they're saying is excess fat, I've got some healthy habits going, right? So maybe not obsessed about it quite so much, maybe not worry about it taken in context of all these other things.

Troy: Exactly.

Scot: That's what I'm going to try to do.

Troy: I think as a metric to track progress. It seems like a good idea. Is an absolute number to compare to other people or compared to some random standard that may be out there that I don't know how valid that standard is. That's where maybe I'm having some trouble with it.

Scot: All right. Just going to leave this here. It's our opportunity to talk about whatever happens to be on our mind, could be health-related, might not be health-related. Troy, I just want to share that I've got to get to reading the book that somebody gave me for my birthday before my birthday comes around again.

Troy: Oh, yeah.

Scot: It's just always the most awkward thing when somebody gives you a book, whether it be for a birthday or whatever, and says, I think you'll really enjoy this and they see him again, six months, nine months, a year later, and you're like, I have yet to still read that.

Troy: Well, here's what I do, Scot. When they give me the book, I download the audio book, because I know I'm not going to read it, but I will listen to it. It's an additional expense, but inevitably, they're going to ask you, "Did you read the book?" And then you can answer, "Yes," and then you don't have to make things up as you're trying to say what you liked about the book.

Scot: Right. Actually, that's changed that experience in my life changed my book lending philosophy. I generally don't lend people books anymore, because I don't want to also give them this feeling of commitment that they have to read this, because this has happened in the reverse. They'll give it back to you, and they're always very sheepish, like, "I just didn't get time to read it." And I feel bad, because I didn't want that.

Troy: And it's so tough. Like we have a guy, one of my wife's co-workers who lent us some horror films. This guy's really into horror. I hate horror. And he keeps asking that we watch these shows, and I'm like, "Laura, you got to watch these shows, I don't want to watch them." Like the haunting or something, I don't know. Like, I'm just, I'm not into these things.

Scot: Well, you go online, get a synopsis, and you can say, "Yeah, it was really scary, especially that part when . . . Here's your movie back."

Troy: Yeah, exactly.

Scot: And then change the subject.

Troy: I think we're at that point. I need to do that and just give the movie back. So I'm just going to leave this here. I'm going to make this personal, Scot. I don't want to get too personal here, but I really appreciate being part of this podcast. I know, this is kind of a silly thing to say, but when you first asked me to do this, you know, we're probably 15 or so episodes into this. I had my doubts, and my doubt was more, maybe it's an imposter syndrome thing, but I thought, "Who am I to talk about men's health?" Like, I don't really consider myself like a guy's guy, like the guy who's hanging out, you know, working out, and, you know, really talking a lot about prostates or whatever else when you think about men's health.

I was just like, I don't know if I'm the guy to do this. But I'm enjoying it, it's one of the most rewarding things I'm doing in my professional career right now. And I'm noticing changes in myself. I know Mitch has talked about some things he's noticed as he's editing the podcast. As a result of guests in these discussions, I made some changes that are making me feel a lot better in really addressing some things I've struggled with for a long time.

Scot: Wow. Really?

Troy: Yeah. So it's been a really positive thing for me. I appreciate being part of it. I guess that I had my doubts, personal doubts about being a cohost of this coming into it, but it's, you know, from a selfish perspective, I'm very grateful for it, really enjoying it.

Scot: I'm glad. I enjoy having you here and being a part of it. I think I suffered the same thing. I'm like, you know, who am I to think that us talking about these things is going to make a difference. But I think it can, I think it's powerful. I think it shows that it's normal to talk about these things. I think we've had some great information come in here. I think if you're actively engaged in it, then you start making those types of actively engaged decisions. So it's helped three people so far, because it's helped me as well. It's helped you, it's helped Mitch, it's helped me, so, hopefully, it's helping other people as well.

Troy: Hopefully so.

Scot: That's awesome. Time to say the things people say at the end of podcast, because we're at the end of this podcast.

Go to our Facebook page. It's facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. Like it, interact with the content, show people that, yes, men do care about their health. This is one easy way to do that. And so one of the ways we're trying to build a community. What are some other ways people can get to us, Troy?

Troy: You can text me directly at . . . just kidding.

Scot: Wow.

Troy: I'm not doing that. I don't give out my cell number. You can email us at hello@thescoperadio.com, or come by and visit us at the Eccles Health Sciences Library. You could drop in and say hi.

Scot: And also get us, of course, wherever you get podcasts and if you're able to rate and review, give us an honest rating and review. That would be very helpful to help other people find this podcast and show that you care about men's health. Thanks for listening.