29: Battling Burnout

Scot: I think that was a very informative conversation. Mitch, our producer, do you have any final thoughts, anything you'd like to add? He wants to know how we are on time.

Troy: Because he has to edit this. Mitch is like, how much do I have to edit now? Come on, guys.

Scot: Guys, I need you to wrap this up please.

The podcast is called "Who Cares About Men's Health?" We are on a mission to inform and inspire so you can care more about your health and live a more satisfying life. My name is Scot. I am the senior producer of thescoperadio.com, and I care about men's health.

Troy: And I'm Troy. I'm a doctor. I care about men's health.

Dr. Jones: And I'm Kyle Bradford Jones. I am also a doctor, and I care about men's health.

Troy: Excellent.

Scot: One of our core four that we talk about on the show is mental health. So our core four is if you pay attention to these things now, they will not only help you live a better life now, but also it will be a great investment in your future and that is activity, nutrition, you've got to watch your sleep, mental health, and our one more is you've got to be aware of your genetics as well. So stress can be a big impact on your health without even realizing it. The Mayo Clinic says that stress can lead to headaches, high blood pressure, obesity, cause you to exercise less, can cause sleep problems. So I mean, you know, that really can impact the other core four, those things you should be doing to feel good now and later. So it is something that really does need to be dealt with.

Dr. Jones has experienced burnout in his life. Started in residency with long 30-hour days, two weeks, three weeks at a time not seeing the sun, caring for people that are sick and dying.

Dr. Jones: Absolutely. So much of that emotional and physical stress coming on that is really hard to work through sometimes.

Scot: And it can occur to anybody that has to feel that they need to perform at a high level, whether you're in the tech industry or, I mean, just anywhere, right, anybody. It's nobody's immune to burnout.

Dr. Jones: Absolutely. You're absolutely right. I mean with . . . I saw one stat that almost 45% of all workers in the United States experience some form of burnout. That's crazy.

Troy: That is crazy.

Dr. Jones: I mean that's almost half of everybody.

Troy: Yeah, I've seen that same number, and it is it is crazy, but it's, I think, yeah, it's the reality.

Scot: Burnout is one of these words though that's thrown around a lot. Like, so what does it really mean? I mean, does it have two definitions? Does it have a definition of what it means to the general person and to a medical professional diagnosing you with burnout or . . .

Dr. Jones: Not necessarily. So basically, burnout is exhaustion from your work, and that means physical, emotional, mental, psychological, and it mainly goes along with like getting an emotional detachment from your job, where, you know, something that you have been successful in and high performing all of a sudden starts to . . . where your work can start to slip, because of this emotional exhaustion. But it's also hard because there can be overlap between burnout as well as depression. And so sometimes you might need a physician to help you sort that through. But in general, burnout is something that is more of kind of a personal journey, so to speak, of finding coping skills, of working through to find the right fit, whether that's changing jobs, or whether it's trying to figure out how to make your work worthwhile to you.

Troy: And, you know, burnout, like Scot, said is kind of a word we throw around a lot. Like I'll go through a long week and it's like, oh, I'm so burned out today.

Scot: Right.

Troy: How useful are some of these online tools you can actually use to gauge your burnout to really say, "Hey, here's a tool. Does this say I'm actually burned out?"

Dr. Jones: You know they can be helpful, but kind of to your point, you do have to be careful in that we all have bad days, bad weeks, maybe a bad month at work. And that doesn't necessarily mean you're experiencing this significant burnout, but basically that you're human and you had a tough day or whatever. And so oftentimes having some of these symptoms of burnout of the emotional exhaustion, the detachment from your job, all of those things long term or happening where it's consistent, it's not just a day or a week or whatever, it's ongoing and you are really losing your motivation.

Scot: What comes first, burnout or depression?

Dr. Jones: Excellent question, and it totally depends on the individual.

Scot: So it's the chicken and the egg question really.

Dr. Jones: Exactly. Absolutely, because sometimes they're related, sometimes they're really not.

Troy: And I think it's also worth, you know, looking at stress, and Scot mentioned stress. Do you find that stress leads to burnout? I mean, I've always felt like a certain amount of stress is a good thing. I think it helps us perform well and then too much. And I've had some times where I'm experiencing no stress with a certain task or a job, and that makes me stressed. I don't know, it's kind of a weird thing, the whole stress thing.

Scot: Yeah. So is burnout just typical stress, or are they two different things?

Dr. Jones: Yeah, and they can absolutely be two different things, because I totally agree that there's that certain amount of stress that's kind of needed to drive you to do your best. And once that stress gets to a point where it's actually doing the opposite and keeping you from doing your best, that's when you should be a little more concerned about potential burnout.

Scot: Troy, have you ever felt burnout do you think?

Troy: I don't want to make this about me, Scot, because I too often do. I mean, you want to talk about residency. I think residency gave me PTSD. I'll wake up with just these stress nightmares of being in the ER and having all these patients, and it's always back at where I did residency, and I just can't see them all and I can't get out of the room and I mean, you want to talk about burnout, I was burned out in residency. I have to be honest about that. I was. I mean, it was . . . I found residency extremely difficult, and I always tell our residents that. I mean, I think the worst ER job in the world is better than the best residency.

Scot: Wow.

Troy: Just what you go through. I mean, it's not just the hours. It's not just not seeing the sun. It's often the way you're treated by some staff, and just, you know, there's a certain sometimes almost dehumanization with it. It's tough. I mean, it's and I feel like that's kind of why when I went into academics. I want to make that better for, you know, our residents. I want to make them, you know, to have a good experience, and I think we've been successful here at doing that. But residency is hard. I had a very hard experience.

Scot: I think, I was wondering this, my question myself if I've suffered from burnout. And I think most recently, maybe I have. I'm pursuing a master's degree. And the last semester was just brutal. I mean the only thing that really got me through it was knowing that it was going to be over at some point. Yeah, right?

Troy: I thought you were going to say the only thing that really got you through was me helping you out on your assignments. Just kidding.

Scot: Well, that was very helpful.

Troy: That was a case study.

Scot: And those are the only ones I did get A's on.

Troy: Oh, good, good. Glad to hear that.

Scot: So, like, I don't know. It just it was . . . tell me if this is burnout. I got to a certain point where I'm just like I want this to be done. I just almost had to drag myself to my computer to do the stuff that I knew I needed to do to pass the class. It wasn't enjoyable anymore.

Dr. Jones: Absolutely.

Scot: Classic symptoms?

Dr. Jones: Absolutely.

Scot: But the difference probably between that kind of burnout and what I'm hearing from Troy is how long is residency, like two years?

Troy: Three years minimum.

Scot: Yeah, so, I mean that's like, that light at the end of the tunnel. Like for me, I just survived to the end. But for somebody that might have to be dealing with it a longer term, they might need some tools or strategies it sounds like.

Troy: Yeah, or again, a lot of like you talked about the tech job. I think a lot of tech jobs I see what they go through. It's like residency, the hours they're putting in.

Scot: Every single day year after year after year.

Troy: Yeah. It's super high stress and, you know, they're working very, very long hours and under very difficult circumstances.

Scot: So what are some things that a person can do? I mean, it sounds like a real tangled web, like is it depression? Is it burnout? Is it this? Is it that? You might have to go get treatment for depression and then do some things with burnout. But if you're experiencing burnout, are there some tried-and-true things that somebody could do?

Dr. Jones: Absolutely. So typically with kind of classic burnout, you tend to get better with time away from work, and sometimes that's not always possible. But like for example, here, being an academic physician, we are told you have to use all of your vacation days in our department, and because . . .

Troy: Can I join your department?

Dr. Jones: Yes, please.

Troy: I need vacation days. Anyway. Well, that's great. I'm glad they have that approach.

Dr. Jones: Yeah, because you need that time away. And, but again, oftentimes that's not always possible. But other things is you need coping skills and not just one. You know, you need to have multiple. So, and for example, things like a lot of people use exercise, which is an excellent coping skill. However, if that's your only coping skill, then you might run into trouble, no pun intended.

Scot: If you're a runner.

Troy: You're a runner. Not a jogger.

Dr. Jones: Because, you know, if you get injured, if you end up needing a surgery or something, you can't exercise, and all of a sudden that coping mechanism is gone. And so having multiple coping mechanisms is really important. So, for example, I really like puzzles. So that's one of my coping mechanisms is, you know, every week I need an hour or two to go work on a puzzle, and that really kind of helps me process my stress and my thoughts a little bit.

Troy: That's really cool you mentioned that. I've actually seen studies and some people have talked about after a stressful event in the ER, you have Tetris on your phone, they'll go play Tetris for five minutes, and somehow just doing that relieves that, you know, very, very difficult stressful thing they just faced. That's kind of cool. That's a great coping mechanism.

Scot: Because that's interesting because I would think the stigma of, "Oh, you're just wasting your time playing games," but research has actually backed that that can help.

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: That's cool.

Troy: That's cool.

Dr. Jones: Yeah, yeah. You need that mental and emotional release, even if it is for just five minutes. It makes a difference.

Scot: Is it a release or a distraction, or just getting your brain thinking about something else? Which I guess is a distraction. I mean, what is it?

Dr. Jones: You know, it's a little more than just a distraction because, you know, a distraction implies that the stress is still there and you're just burying it kind of a thing. Whereas working through some of your coping mechanisms does help your body kind of process the emotional but also the physical stress that comes from stress in the workplace or other areas.

Scot: So how can you find a coping mechanism that works for you? Puzzles or a game, I mean, that kind of surprised me.

Dr. Jones: Sure.

Scot: Is it just anything that allows that stress to drain from your body?

Dr. Jones: Yes.

Scot: Like if you quit five minutes later and you're like, "Ah, I feel better."

Dr. Jones: Yeah, absolutely.

Scot: So it could be woodworking out in the garage.

Dr. Jones: Yeah, absolutely.

Scot: It can be building little ships in bottles. People still do that.

Troy: Exactly. It can be your walk. You know, you do your walk five minutes every hour.

Scot: Well, that's physical. But what happens if I don't have that physical? Which I've actually even thought about when I went running. I'm like, wow, this is the only thing that's keeping me from going over the edge. What if this is taken away? What are some other coping mechanisms you use, Dr. Jones?

Dr. Jones: I really enjoy movies. Again, that can be a little time consuming and so that doesn't always happen. I also really like baseball. And so whether it's watching or, you know, just reading articles about it, I really like baseball statistics and so things along those lines. And even if that's, again, taking 5 to 10 minutes in the middle of the day and reading an article online about my favorite team or whatever, can make a big difference.

Troy: And obviously, there's some unhealthy outlets as well. You know, sometimes people will turn to substances or sometimes overeating, those kind of things, and, obviously, you have to be careful to watch for those things and make sure that outlet is a healthy outlet.

Dr. Jones: Absolutely. And that is very common, and particularly among physicians, substance abuse can be a very big thing. But that is a very common coping mechanism. That isn't the healthiest way to go about it.

Troy: Exactly.

Scot: What about if it's a little bit worse . . . well, first of all, you could probably get some coping mechanisms. Who would you go to? Let's do this path forward. Like, you know, I would imagine the internet has all sorts of suggestions, and you can decide whether or not, you know, they're useful or not. So maybe you do some exercise, maybe you do like puzzles like Dr. Jones, so you do that. But what if that's not helping?

Dr. Jones: You know, if that's not helping, oftentimes you might need to explore, okay, well, do I need a different hobby or a different coping mechanism? But also that might be telling that, hey, maybe I need to go see my doctor now and see if this is going beyond burnout and becoming more like depression or another problem.

Troy: And I think at some point too maybe, you know, if it's work related, maybe you really need to look at your job and say, "Hey, this just might not be the right job for me, and maybe I'll be happier somewhere else."

Dr. Jones: Absolutely.

Scot: All right. Well, thank you very much for helping us through burnout. Sounds like to summarize, recognizing that it might happen, being sure that it can . . . you know, realizing it can impact other aspects of your health so it is something to deal with, come up with some coping mechanisms, some similar that we talked about. I like to do some mindfulness, some deep breathing. Just checking in with my body every once in a while in addition to exercise. If that doesn't work, then you might want to reevaluate your life, see if that job is not right for you.

Dr. Jones: That could be part of it.

Scot: And, you know, as always go to your physician and talk to them about it, which always feels funny to me. It feels funny to me to go to the doctor and say, "Doc, I think I might be dealing with burnout." Because it's like, you know, it's not a broken bone. It's not like a stroke. It's just you're dealing with burnout. That's not a big deal.

Dr. Jones: Yeah, but it can be. It affects your life. It can affect everything. So, you know, if it is getting to that point, it's absolutely helpful to talk about it with your doctor.

Scot: Dr. Jones, thank you very much for being on the show and talking about burnout and caring about men's health.

Dr. Jones: Sure.

Voiceover: Paging Dr. Troy Madsen to Scope Studio for ER or Not.

Scot: All right, time for another episode of ER or Not. That's where Dr. Troy Madsen, we throw out a scenario. You at home play along and see if you would make a good ER doctor, decide whether or not you should go to the ER for this particular condition or not. Then Dr. Madsen is going to go ahead and let us know what the real deal is.

All right, today's ER or Not, you're doing whatever and you stub your toe. I'm talking about really badly, to the point where afterwards you have a hard time putting weight on it, walking on it. A stubbed toe, ER or not?

Troy: So ER or not on the stubbed toe? You don't have to go to the ER for this, and you may not even have to go to the urgent care. And now I'm speaking from experience. I've done this several times. I will tell you if you do stub your toe and you think it's broken, if you go to the ER, you'll probably get an x-ray, and we'll probably say, "Yeah, it's broken," and then we'll tape it to the toe next to it, and we'll say, "Give it four weeks, it'll heal up."

Now one thing I should tell you is if you do break your toe, I don't recommend running another eight miles on it. I did this and I did break my toe, and I thought about my advice on this show, and my toe does curve in slightly now. So it healed sort of in the shape of my shoe, but maybe that's a benefit for running. I don't know. But the answer is you don't necessarily need to go to the ER. You could go to an urgent care if you're concerned. They can get an x-ray there, or, you know, you could probably get away with just taping it to the other toe as long as everything is aligned correctly and it all looks good.

Scot: Yeah, if it's sticking off in some weird, strange direction then . . .

Troy: Yeah. I mean, then it's pretty obvious.

Scot: Then urgent care.

Troy: You're saying, that doesn't look right.

Scot: Urgent care can handle that?

Troy: Oh, absolutely. Urgent care can handle it. They can at least get the x-ray, and they can probably get it back in place, but no reason to rush to the ER.

Scot: I want to remind you that we're giving away a DNA test, one of those health and family history tests here on "Who Cares About Men's Health?" I got not one but two of them for Christmas.

Troy: And I turned you down. I'm sorry. I rejected you.

Scot: I'm like, hey, Troy, you want to take this with me?

Troy: I said no.

Scot: Nope.

Troy: Nope.

Scot: I'm still kind of going through the process whether or not this is something I want to do. You know, there's a lot more to it than just getting a test and getting the results. Like it's kind of some scary stuff as I started really contemplating sending this in and some of the health results that, you know, I might see. So we're covering that on the podcast over the next few episodes, so be sure to tune in for that.

But if this is something you're interested in as well, you can enter to win our contest and it's super simple. You just have to go to whocaresmenshealth.com or facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth and enter to win the contest. It's a short little five question survey. We're going to ask you, you know, what you might want to hear about on future episodes, but then we'll give that away and then involve you in the process.

The goal is to have a genetic counselor on the day that we spit into the cup. The genetic counselor can talk us through some of these things that we're going to go through. You'll have the opportunity to ask some questions as well. And then we'll get the test results back, and we'll have that genetic counselor on again to help walk us through those results.

Troy: Yeah, I think this will be great. And again, I'm not interested, but I'm curious to see the outcome and, you know, go through the whole process and talk to the genetic counselor.

Scot: Yep, so whocaresmenshealth.com or facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth to sign up to win that free genetic health and family history test from "Who Cares About Men's Health?"

All right, time for Just Going to Leave This Here, we might talk about something health related. It might not be health related. Let's go ahead and start with you, Troy, just going to leave this here.

Troy: Well, I'm just going to leave this here. I learned a new term just recently. It's called kama muta. Have you ever heard of this term?

Scot: Hakuna matata, yes, I have.

Troy: Hakuna matata.

Scot: It was in that movie . . .

Troy: And it's kind of like hakuna matata.

Scot: Say it again. What is it?

Troy: Kama muta.

Scot: Kama muta.

Troy: It's a term that psychologists have given to that brief kind of warm, fuzzy feeling you get, like if a kitten jumps onto your lap or, you know, that moment of pure joy, like maybe it's, you know, maybe it's with exercise or maybe it's just like as a group thing, like they make the analogy like a guy scoring a touchdown and, you know, the whole group coming together. Kama muta, it's kind of a cool thing. I feel like I need to bring more kama muta into my life, because those are really cool moments like when you feel like you're just walking on clouds. They say this feeling only lasts for a few minutes, but it's never had a term for it, but I think we all experience it to some degree or another and it's just that, again, that feeling of like walking on air.

Scot: And appreciate it when it does come into your life.

Troy: Exactly.

Scot: Troy, just going to leave this here. My wife decided that her Facebook feed was just a little too bleak, so she followed a couple of corgi Facebook fan pages and has shared with me . . .

Troy: Oh, no. Shared with you.

Scot: . . . the weirdness of corgi owners and you own a corgi.

Troy: No, we own two, one and a half corgis.

Scot: Okay. One and a half corgis.

Troy: One is a corgi mix. The other is a corgi.

Scot: So they have all sorts of slang terms. Is your corgi a potato or a loaf?

Troy: Well, our pure-bred corgi is a potato.

Scot: And what's it called when your corgi lies down with its legs behind its back?

Troy: We call it the sploot.

Scot: Yeah. That's the sploot.

Troy: Is that what it's called? I didn't know that. Laura got all these terms from these Facebook fan. She always, "Oh, she's doing the sploot."

Scot: I don't know if that's all dogs that do that. So I found a test here on BuzzFeed.

Troy: Oh no.

Scot: And I want you to take this and see. They say that only the true corgi lovers will get a 9 out of 10 on this quiz. So here's the first picture. It's got a picture of a corgi, and you need to identify the corgi's momo.

Troy: I don't even know. So this is going to have to be Laura doing this.

Scot: You don't know the momo?

Troy: I don't. Is it the butt?

Scot: The momo is the corgi butt, a peach-shaped corgi butt.

Troy: Oh, wow.

Scot: So now you have a new one, the momo.

Troy: Where's the drumstick? I'm going to say the leg, the back leg.

Scot: Oh yeah, yeah. Where are the drumsticks? The back legs.

Troy: Back legs.

Scot: That is correct. Drumsticks are their back legs, and you can't eat them.

Troy: No, unwise.

Scot: What about the stumpers?

Troy: I'm going to say the front legs, those stumpy little legs.

Scot: Yep. Stumpers are their front legs. The blinkers?

Troy: Blinkers are probably the eyes.

Scot: I don't know that this is really a corgi thing at this point.

Troy: I know. I feel like their making stuff up.

Scot: But this is funny. Blinkers are the eyes which see into your soul.

Troy: They do see into your soul. Oh, my goodness. We got a . . . I got to look the other day from my corgi, and it was looking into my soul.

Scot: What about the majestic poof?

Troy: Majestic poof has got to be a little tuft on the front of their chest.

Scot: That is absolutely correct.

Troy: There's definitely this weird corgi subculture.

Scot: You got 10 out of 10, and next week, we'll have you take the quiz that you have to identify the loaf of bread or the corgi butt.

Troy: Oh, wow, this is great. Yeah, so we have a corgi. Like I said, we have two corgis. One is Charlotte. She is a corgi mix Australian shepherd. She is insane. She runs with me. She actually completed a marathon with me a couple months ago. And then the other . . .

Scot: On those stumpers and drumsticks? Come on.

Troy: Yeah, it's crazy. It's unbelievable. The other's name is Itty Bit, if you can believe it. We didn't name her. She's an old corgi. Her owner passed away. We took her in our home. She's a sweetheart, but she is a sassy corgi.

Scot: That's the other thing we discovered about corgi owners is they have . . . their dog names are just not like normal dog names.

Troy: Yeah, I didn't name her Itty Bit.

Scot: Like it's Princess Banana Hammock Sharpshooter.

Troy: That's true. I did not give you Charlotte's full name. It is Princess Charlotte of Wales. I'm sorry to admit that.

Scot: That's going to wrap up this episode. Thank you very much for listening. Time for just to say the things that we say at the end of podcasts. So Troy, go ahead and take this away.

Troy: Yeah, so check us out on Facebook, facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. Be sure and subscribe either through iTunes, Spotify, Google Play. If you, you know, want to get in touch with us, contact us at hello@thescoperadio.com, and thanks for listening and thanks for caring about men's health and corgis.