43: Fighting COVID-19 in New York City

Troy: I went to McDonald's a couple of days ago and I got my free first responder healthcare provider meal and . . .

Scot: Is that what they're calling it?

Troy: It is.

Scot: That's kind of a clumsy name for it, don't you think?

Troy: I didn't even know how to ask for it. I saw it advertised at the drive-through. I was like, "Hey, do you have free meals for healthcare workers?" They're like, "Yes, we do." Yeah, it's a little Happy Meal box. You've got to get it. It's got a thank you note. It's really quite nice.

I posted the note in there on the bulletin board in our kitchen, just so no one in this house forgets that I am a hero and I got a free meal from McDonald's. So, anyway, it meant a lot.

Scot: Providing information and inspiration to take ownership of your health, this is "Who Cares About Men's Health." My name is Scot Singpiel. I am the manager of thescoperadio.com and I care about men's health.

Troy: And I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician at the University of Utah and I care about men's health.

Dr. Aberegg: I'm Scott Aberegg and I'm a pulmonary critical care physician at the University of Utah, and I care about men's health.

Scot: Dr. Aberegg, thank you very much for joining us today. We have Dr. Aberegg on because he is a pulmonologist, which he already said, but he's back from volunteering in New York City on the frontlines of the COVID-19 pandemic. We thought this would be a great opportunity to find out a little bit what that was like, what you learned, and if there are things that he feels that we should know about COVID-19. So thank you very much for joining us.

One of the things we do like to talk about on "Who Cares About Men's Health" before we get to the main topic is how are you staying healthy? So we talk about the core four plus one more, which is nutrition, activity, sleep, mental health, and then the plus one more is you've got to be aware of your genetics to be healthy now and in the future.

So how are you staying healthy in, as they say a lot now, a world of COVID-19? Are you finding your habits have stayed the same or are they changed considerably?

Dr. Aberegg: I think they stayed largely the same except for, of course, my family and I are socially isolating and wearing masks in public. In some ways, working from home has given me more flexibility to ride my bike and do some of those things and cook meals at home and has kept us out of the restaurants. So those might be positive aspects of the experience.

Scot: How about your emotional health? How are you doing on that front? Being on the frontlines in New York, which we'll get to in a second, must have been a little stressful. Did you have strategies for dealing with that stress?

Dr. Aberegg: It was honestly a little bit scary signing up voluntarily to go wondering if the rate of healthcare worker infections, people getting infected at work . . . in Italy, it was something like, or Spain, 10% to 20%. So that's a little scary, but as soon as you got there and after you went into the first room and you looked around and saw no one else freaking out and everyone conducting business as usual, the fears instantly dissipated I would say.

Scot: Gotcha. All right. Let's get back to the conversation. So, Dr. Aberegg, you went to New York City as a volunteer to help out. I find that fascinating. Why did you decide to sign up?

Dr. Aberegg: Largely because I guess when somebody says they need help, I just go help them for better and for worse. I have a bunch of friends in New York City, people that are in pulmonary, and even one of my buddies is a cardiologist who was redeployed as a COVID worker. So when you hear that kind of need, it's a shared kinship, I guess, and I felt almost compelled to go.

Scot: And how did your family feel about that?

Dr. Aberegg: Well, my wife knows that when I get an idea, it's like a Rottweiler getting ahold of a bone. And so I don't let go very easily and it was pretty clear that I was committed, and so she supported me and looked after the kids, who are 1 and 3, on her own for a couple of weeks. So that was her contribution to the whole effort. None of these things happen on an individual basis. It's always a team effort.

Troy: Scott, tell us a little more about how long you were there, where you were exactly in New York City, what setting you were in, and how all that worked for you.

Dr. Aberegg: So I showed up for a two-week stretch, beginning on April 5th in Manhattan on the Upper East Side. And it's very interesting. I walked straight through the Salt Lake City Airport with not a single delay and very few people, got on a plane, got there in a tailwind about 40 minutes earlier. So it only took about 3 hours and 10 minutes to get to New York. Unloaded from the plane, walked straight through another airport that was completely abandoned, got on the first cab that I walked up to, and 22 minutes later, went from JFK to the Upper East Side of Manhattan, which is . . . if you've ever traveled in and out of New York, you know that it's pretty phenomenal to do door-to-door in under six hours.

So then, of course, the streets of New York were entirely abandoned at 10:00 at night when I arrived. There was almost no one visible on the streets in cars or on sidewalks. So compared to business as usual in New York, that's quite a striking contrast for sure.

Scot: Yeah. Wow.

Troy: That's remarkable, yeah.

Scot: It is. How intense were things then when you got there? Was it like being thrown into the fire?

Dr. Aberegg: I think there are varying degrees of chaos in New York City right now from errant, uncontrolled chaos to somewhat relatively controlled chaos. And I'd say that the hospital I worked at was more on the controlled chaos end of things for a variety of reasons.

And so, when you walked in . . . on many days when I would walk in, there was an enormous oxygen tanker truck replenishing the oxygen supplies in the hospital, which were being depleted on a daily basis because of how much oxygen was being utilized in the hospital.

And then throughout the hospital, construction crews were quickly, and astonishingly really, adapting areas of the hospital that weren't accustomed to taking care of critically ill patients and converting in almost an ad hoc basis regular floors to ICU rooms.

So I was stationed, if you will, to continue the deployment, in military analogies. I was stationed in a unit that was a regular floor that had been quickly . . . I don't want to say hastily, but very quickly converted into an ICU. There's a lot of wiring and piping that has to happen in order to get high flows of oxygen that are compatible with . . . high percentages of oxygen to be delivered to patients.

And so the entire floor had been converted. At first, they had opened up 5 beds, and subsequently were up to 12, and a couple of days later we're up to 20 beds on that floor that were functioning as an ICU at that time.

And there are only so many ICU nurses, so the nurses that had previously been on that telemetry or step-down unit were quickly trained to function as ICU nurses. So that's the unit that we worked on that had unpainted drywall that had been constructed.

And the other thing is that this was an essential part in terms of I think safety and people's peace of mind, is that they would knock out a panel of the windows, board it up, and place a HEPA filtration system, a negative airflow system, which is a mobile box that was just plugged into an outlet. It wasn't even hard-wired, if you will, or permanently wired. And so that converted the majority, if not all, of the rooms on that floor to negative airflow rooms, which was essential.

So, in sum, there was just a lot of very expeditious modifications made to the physical facilities of the hospital that allowed these patients to be cared for since there were so many of them.

Troy: And I imagine going into this, you probably had certain expectations. I think if I were to go back there, I'd probably expect to see some of the same things, makeshift things, trying to make things work. But what were some of your biggest surprises in working there, either in the patients or in the setup or just in what you experienced?

Dr. Aberegg: Well, that whole thing that I just described was quite surprising, how adaptable everyone had to be. And it wasn't just on floor. All of the regular ICUs were quickly occupied with patients. And so it wasn't just the floors being modified, but operating rooms were converted into chronic ICU rooms, post-anesthesia care unit rooms. An accompanying orthopedic hospital was being converted into ICU rooms. And so the scale of that adjustment shouldn't be understated or under-appreciated because there's a lot to do there.

What I was most surprised with is how well we got along with using nurses who had been quickly trained and reissued, if you were, as ICU nurses on the floor and how well we were able to . . . Some of the successes that we were able to have working with a depleted staffing pool was pretty amazing.

Scot: The story that you told is absolutely amazing, because we hear a lot about the healthcare workers and the frontline workers being the heroes, which they absolutely are. We hear a little less about perhaps environmental services, the people that are responsible for cleaning facilities and making sure that they're infection-free and that there aren't any viruses around. But it sounds like there was a lot of just people in engineering departments and construction workers that had to be called to very quickly put up a workable area. I think that's pretty amazing.

Dr. Aberegg: Think about what it is from that person's perspective. They don't have the knowledge of the disease and the protection and the transmission rates and what to expect that I or a nurse do. And they're coming in to work dutifully with a less comprehensive understanding, and the less you understand something, the more fearful I think it is. So I think you're absolutely right.

I still remember the one guy from facilities coming by each day with a little squirt bottle almost. It was filled with some kind of baby powder or something that he would just put a little puff under the crack under the door to make sure that the negative airflow was sucking the little puff of powder under the door to check things and everything.

And all of those people, I think, are not being celebrated as much as they deserve in this whole thing. Because that ICU that I worked in wouldn't have existed had it not been for those men and women with that know-how of how to construct something like that on a short timeline.

Scot: Yeah, that's pretty incredible.

Troy: I'm curious about it. And now that you've seen many of these patients who are very, very sick . . . obviously you've seen many, many sick patients with all sorts of disease processes over your career. Are you seeing similarities between this disease and other diseases that you've seen, or does this just seem like something very different from what you've seen before?

Dr. Aberegg: There is definitely something very different about this disease that does not come out in statistics that I have yet seen in terms of the disability that we're seeing. And I think that that's the result of a perfect storm of factors.

One is that this disease is different. It has profound gas exchange abnormalities, meaning that when severely affected by COVID, the ability of the lungs to take in oxygen and release or remove carbon dioxide is severely impaired.

The other factor is that the duration of the illness . . . I'm going to wager the average duration of the illness when a patient is on the ventilator or the breathing machine is going to be two to three times the average of the last 10 years of people that are on the ventilator for ARDS. That's just a wager. I put it out there. We'll see if I'm right or not.

And the third thing is combined with that . . . so those are disease-specific things. That is severity and duration of disease. But then you pile on top of that an overwhelmed healthcare system in general with just more patients per nurse and doctor than we were accustomed to. It created, as I said, a bit of a perfect storm. The disease itself is different, and the response to the disease in pandemic times was necessarily different because of the burdens it imposed on the healthcare system.

Scot: I'm getting the impression that we're learning over time that this is not just a really bad flu.

Dr. Aberegg: I can definitely tell you that I'm bewildered when I see on social media personal friends of mine making claims that this illness has been exaggerated and it's comparable to the flu because that is just . . . there is absolutely no way that that's the case.

So if the statistics are pointing to it being no worse than the flu, then the statistics are wrong. I can tell you that all you have to do is be in an area where this disease has gotten a foothold. And I'm not sure it really has a foothold in Utah, praise the Lord or whoever you want to thank. But what we're seeing in Utah is nothing like what they're seeing in New York, and all one has to do is walk into any ICU in New York and take a look around and see that this is not influenza.

Scot: Before we started the episode, and I'm going to give a behind the scenes to listeners, we discussed how we wanted to approach this topic. And we wanted to be optimistic but yet cautious.

But I'm afraid, as I'm seeing around the United States and in Utah here, and I'm the one that doesn't have an MD, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm afraid as we start seeing the loosening of some restrictions that we're going to see a significant increase.

Do you have any thoughts of . . . just because restrictions are loosening, should I be changing my behavior or should I be sticking to some of the same tenets that we've been sticking to for the past few weeks?

Dr. Aberegg: Well, I do have some training in public health, but I wouldn't call myself a public health practitioner and I'm not an authority on this. So then why don't I keep it to what my family and I are going to do? Because we do have a little bit of insider knowledge. So this is not a recommendation, but this is what we're going to do.

We are going to continue to limit our forays into public, we are going to continue to wear masks when we do so, and we are going to wait to see what the result is as things are gradually open. So I think we're going to take a cautious approach rather than saying, "Darn the torpedoes and full speed ahead."

There's not a good reason for us to do that. We've survived just well, and in some ways, it's brought us together as a family at home a lot more in the last month than we probably ever have. So I think that caution is warranted.

Troy: Scott, I think that sounds like a great approach. I agree. I worry too much that we look at this like, "Hey, it's all clear. Let's all come out and get back to life as normal." But I don't know that life is ever going to be, at least not for a couple of years, back to normal as we think of it. I think it's just a gradual adjustment.

I think, like you said, that's a great approach. I feel the same way, that limiting going out and wearing a mask when we're out and avoiding large gatherings. I agree.

I think I share the same fears as you, where I have not been in the middle of the fire there in New York and seeing just how bad it can be. But certainly, I worry about that here. I think your approach is great. I think it's good advice. Do what we're doing now. Don't make big changes. Gradual adjustments as we go forward.

Scot: Dr. Aberegg, I think it's incredible that you had the training both in public health and as a pulmonologist to go to New York City and help. I think as people, and especially as men, we want to be helpful, and when we have the ability to do so, it can be very fulfilling to be able to go and offer that help and support. Did this experience change you fundamentally in any ways that you could identify for the rest of your life?

Dr. Aberegg: I don't know if this is the end or not, but I'd like to throw in a positive note. It is extraordinary what people, especially in . . . everywhere. Here in Utah, the preparations that were made, which probably averted a disaster for us. There were people in New York that we're working but a few days off for six weeks straight by the time that I left out of necessity, and people are still pouring in from all over the country and in fact from other places in the world, from Canada and other countries to help them. And the degree of support in the community with the clapping at 7:00 p.m. and the fire trucks and the sirens.

They are really at war and they have come together to participate in that battle, I think, each person in their own ways. And I think that's the thing that I'll remember the most is how crisis does bring people together.

Scot: Dr. Aberegg, thank you very much for your insight and sharing some of your stories as well. We appreciate it, and thank you for caring about men's health.

Dr. Aberegg: Yes, sir. Thank you all for having me.

Scot: The secret to resilience is a good story. So when mental health professionals talk about resilience, a lot of times they say that that is the key to staying mentally healthy and one of the tools you can use to avoid depression. How would you define resilience, Troy?

Troy: Oh, man. It's tough because we hear it so much that it's become almost cliché, but I think resilience is just the ability to take a beating and just keep on going.

Scot: And come back.

Troy: And come back from it.

Scot: Maybe even be strong and rise like the Phoenix.

Troy: Bounce back and rise like the Phoenix from the ashes.

Scot: There's a guy on Twitter that I really particularly like. His name is Brad Stulberg, and he talks a lot of times, in terms of wellness, a lot of the same things that we talk about. Focus on your nutrition, getting your activity, your sleep, your mental health, that sort of thing.

He posted an article that he wrote. It's on "The Growth Equation" blog of his, and it's "The Secret to Resilience is a Good Story." And this really resonated with me and I like this and I wanted to share it.

So the difference between how people react to something negative can oftentimes be the story that you settle on about it. So, for example, he says, "I didn't get the job. My streak of failing is continuing." That's not a good story, but a good story is, "I didn't get the job, but I learned X, Y, and Z in the process and I'll be better off for my next interview." That's a good framing of . . .

Troy: Kind of the whole glass-half-full thing, taking a little more optimistic view of what may be perceived as a failure.

Scot: Yeah. I think you had a story about this. I'm going to ask you if you can think of an instance in your life. I'm thinking of one with your running, but . . .

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: Instead of the story being, "There's just no solution to this. I'm never going to figure it out because I'm dumb. I guess I'm not as smart as I thought I was," the story being, "You know what? This has got me puzzled, but I'm pretty good at solving problems. I'm just going to give myself a little bit of time and I'm going to get it. I'll figure it out. The answer will come to me."

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: I think that story is a lot healthier, and I think that's what this article says.

Troy: Right. And you're probably referring to when I got injured. It's been about a year ago now. And when that injury happened, my immediate thought as soon as I was injured was, "Well, I guess I'm done running." But I was able to keep going and got through the end of that run, and then I thought to myself, "Well, this is good because it's helping me to focus less on what I was probably focusing too much on," and that was speed and times and races and all that, and get back to more "Why do I run and why do I do this?"

And I struggled a lot with that, but I think trying to look more at the positive angle, that really helped me and I think got me back to why I run. I've got to say I've enjoyed it more since then.

Scot: Or stories about how we can overcome things as opposed to being blocked by things.

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: One of the examples that he uses is with the U.S. Olympian runner, Des Linden. Talked about an injury that forced her to pull out of the 2012 Olympic marathon just two miles in. And this is what she said. "Having an injury is a sign of pushing beyond your limit. When I fractured my femur, an injury that forced me to pull out of the 2012 Olympic marathon, I did everything I could to stay positive. Sure, it sucked, especially because of the timing, and I let myself be sad, but I also learned about imbalances in my body and fixed them. In a weird way, the injury increased my confidence. I ran on that thing for like six weeks. It proved to me that I'm a pretty tough gal. I could challenge the toughness in bouncing back."

So her narrative is, "I'm tough. I can overcome this, I can figure it out."

Troy: That's really cool. And you hear people talk about that, how losing a job was the best thing that ever happened to them. Things like that where losing a job wasn't devastating, it allowed them to reframe things, and I'm sure a huge part of that was the approach they took, that like, "Hey, yeah, I lost my job, but this allows me to focus more on what I've wanted to do, but I've been in this secure situation and haven't taken that step because I had that. Now it's gone. So let's try it."

Scot: So think about how can you tell yourself a good story about what's happened to you, a positive narrative or maybe a narrative of how you overcome or incorporate it into something like that. And according to this, that's the secret to resilience, a good story.

All right. Time for "Odds and Ends" on "Who Cares About Men's Health." A couple issues. First of all, we are approaching 1,000 Facebook followers. Troy, can you believe it?

Troy: I can't believe it. And I think, Scot, if I'm not mistaken, Mitch just was offering $1,000 to the 1,000th like.

Mitch: That's not true.

Troy: I may have misheard it.

Scot: I know what I'm paying Mitch, and he's not offering that.

Troy: Unless he's got some nice side gigs going on.

Scot: Yeah, almost a thousand people. That's incredible because the whole point of us starting this podcast was to develop this community of men who cared about their health, which we believe a lot of men do, but more importantly, that talk about their health and feel comfortable doing it. And just us, Troy, you and I are just a couple of guys talking about our health. I think it's just incredibly cool that we've got almost a thousand other people that are part of this deal. How far away are we, Mitch, approximately?

Mitch: Fifty. We are 50 people or around 50.

Troy: I should probably like our podcast so we can get that down to 49.

Scot: Troy doesn't have a Facebook page, which . . .

Troy: I should probably get on Facebook first, and then I should probably like our podcast, but that is really cool.

Scot: But let's break that 1,000 barrier and here's how we're going to do it. If you are a regular listener to this show and you've already liked the page, thank you very much. But if you have not told a friend or talked to somebody that you think would also find value in this podcast, just let them know about it on Facebook and see if you can get a couple of your friends to like and listen, and that would go a long way to continuing to build this community and this knowledge base and this movement of men that care about their health.

So thank you very much, everybody, that has liked the Facebook page. If you could maybe be an advocate for the show, find at least one other friend to reach out to and say, "Hey, can you follow this? And by the way, you might like one of these episodes." Pick out an episode you think that they might like, whether it's a mental health episode or any of the other episodes, the episode we did on running, the episodes we've done on nutrition, whatever you think they would find value in.

Mitch: And hey, it doesn't have to be men. If you have other people in your life that might be interested in just general health information . . . we find a lot of our listeners are women.

Troy: Exactly. Shout out to the women. My sister Melanie is a regular listener. If Melanie is listening, thanks for listening.

Scot: Oh, man.

Troy: Yeah. A lot of women listeners, thanks for listening.

Scot: Yep. And we do appreciate that as well because we know the quickest way to alter a man's behavior is usually through the woman.

Troy: Often the most effective way, yes.

Scot: Although we hope that you're doing this on your own. That's really the whole point of it all.

All right. "Odds and Ends" item number two. The Mid-May "Who Cares About Mitch's Health" 5K is going to be moved to June. So we are now going to be calling it the Mid-May 5K in June.

Like many things though in this world with COVID, things are getting pushed back and the Mid-May 5K in June is no exception to that. So we're going to go ahead and keep the May part as homage to the fact that things have been changing for a lot of people.

I'm glad it actually got pushed back, because I'm going to admit to you guys my routine, my health routine, has been impacted. I don't exercise nearly as much as I used to and I'm a little nervous. I don't know if I could run a 5K now. So this will give me a little extra time to train to be sure that I'm ready to do that 3.1 miles.

How is the training going, Mitch?

Mitch: It's going well. I've been able to keep up with it since we started it and then before then. So I have what? Two more weeks on the initial plan? I'm still getting there, starting to do free runs as often as I can, and it's feeling good.

Troy: So it sounds like you're going to be ready for the Mid-May 5K by mid-May.

Mitch: Yeah. Hopefully, I will be.

Troy: That's great. No, that's really great.

Scot: All right. The other little item on that, it's going to be a virtual race. The initial intent was we were going to have a gathering at a location, it would be supporters of Mitch and supporters of the podcast and we were all going to run this 5K with him because he has gone from couch to 5K. This is a big accomplishment for Mitch and we wanted to celebrate that and support that, because that's what we do as men when we talk about health and support other men. Unfortunately, now it's probably going to have to be a virtual race in order to continue to physical distance.

What do we know about that, Mitch? Do we have any of the details on how that's going to be pulled off?

Mitch: It's early days in figuring all that out. So, if you've already liked the Facebook page, keep an eye on there. There's an event in there that we'll be posting all of the news and updates, but we'll probably do it virtually. We'll probably ask people to post pictures. Maybe we'll have swag. We'll see what we can do in the next few weeks.

Scot: Troy, any medal or T-shirts suggestions?

Troy: I was going to say I'm still waiting . . . I want the T-shirt. I want Mitch's face when he took the selfie in the hospital after he had Bell's palsy on the middle of my shirt that just says "Who Cares About Mitch's . . ."

Scot: You are just . . .

Troy: But I love it because it's not that Mitch has Bell's palsy. It's just like this half smile, like, "Do I really have to do this? I'm trying to act excited for it." Anyway, yeah, we need some kind of swag. We need shirts or we need . . . I don't know. Something.

Scot: All right. The Mid-May 5K, the "Who Cares About Mitch's Health" Mid-May 5K now in June. Be sure to go to facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth and look for that event so you can participate, and we will post all the information there.

All right. Time for "Just Going to Leave This Here" on "Who Cares About Men's Health." That is where we have a thought. It might have something to do with what we talked about or health, or it might just be something totally random.

I have a question for both you, Troy, and Producer Mitch. You're in the shower, you take the shampoo bottle, you put some of that shampoo in your hand, and you realize you got way too much out for whatever reason. What do you do at that point when you get too much shampoo out of the bottle? What's your response to that, Troy?

Troy: I use it.

Scot: You use it?

Troy: I use it, yeah. Are you going to say you put it back in the bottle?

Scot: Mitch, what's your response when that happens?

Mitch: As a chronic cheapskate, I will actively take the bottle and put it at a 90-degree angle and scooch as much and suck as much back into the bottle as possible to get it back to the nickel- or quarter-sized amount that is supposed to be used.

Scot: That's exactly what I caught myself doing the other day. I turned the bottle right side up, I squeeze it, so then when I turn it at the 90-degree angle and I tilt my palm, I can let go and the air will suck that shampoo back in there. You don't do that, Troy?

Troy: So you suck it back in? Well, mine's got the push top thing on it. Again, me being a chronic cheapskate as well, I just try and buy it in bulk because I know I'm going to use it and it's not going to go bad. So I've got this huge bottle of shampoo with a little push thing on the top. So the logistics of trying to suck it back in that, I don't know if I could do it, but that's a great idea.

Well, I'm just going to leave this here. I have learned in my attempts to fix things either around the house or in cars that about 50% of the time I figure it out. It usually takes me a lot longer than it should, but I do it and I figure it out. The other 50% of the time, I really screw things up and then I have to get a professional to help.

For example, the other night . . . and often this happens after I've worked a night shift and I'm just not thinking clearly. I checked the oil in my car and I thought, "Oh, it's low. I've got to add oil." And then I look and then I'm like, "Okay. My car is going to hold four quarts of oil." So I had two quarts of oil there. I poured it in. And little known to me, when it's low on the dipstick, that only means it's low by a quart. And so then I go through this process of "How am I going to get the oil out of the car now?" Because I put way too much in there.

As I'm working, I knock the oil cap into the engine and I could not find the oil cap. This was a three-hour process for me. It involved, at one point, getting a small piece of tubing from an old IV bag I had here, not an IV bag I used, just some supplies I had, trying to get this tubing down into the tank and then suck it out with my mouth to try to get oil out. Not effective. I'm not recommending you do anything I do.

At the end of the day, I ended up driving it down to the mechanic and they fixed it for me after a three-hour time investment under the car with the flashlight trying to find the oil cap.

So I don't know what the take-home from this is. My take-home from it is call a professional, but I'm just going to leave this here that I should probably not be doing these things, especially after a night shift.

Scot: Sounds like I can trust you with my life in the ED as an MD, but not to let you change my oil. Okay. Check. Got it.

Troy: Yeah, I don't know if that's going to instill much confidence in my medical skills either, but yeah.

Scot: I trust you exclusively with that, but not oil.

Troy: Yeah. I'm much better trained as a physician than I am as a mechanic. I'll just say that.

Scot: Time to say the things you say at the end of podcasts because we are at the end of ours. So thank you very much for listening. Great episode today, guys, by the way. Thank you very much for being a part of that. Do appreciate it.

If you want to get in touch with us, there are a lot of ways you can do it. I'm going to drop one. Troy is going to drop a few. First of all, you can email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Troy: Yes. You can also reach out to us on Facebook. We're at facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. Also, whocaresmenshealth.com. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and thanks for caring about men's health.